Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[John D.]

Great shots a couple of pages back. Thanks for sharing.

This thread really delivers every now and again

[Joe911]

andyps said:

I have no evidence to base this on, but as a marketer have to add some defence here - my suspicion is that the marketers were responding to those buyers who fit into the category Flemke refers to as possessors rather than users of the car - they would be buying a car from an F1 manufacturer and expect some F1 features in it. Marketing respond to that need rather than creating it in order to sell 375 cars at the right price. I will add that it is a shame this is necessary, but marketers only respond to customers expectations (although sometimes customers may not have directly expressed the expectation).

I know what you mean, but it is equally possible to make/generate a need for something out of nothing (or very little).
For example... do we really believe that McL had a large ground swell of demand for the GTR ... or perhaps they were generating all (or most) of that excitement themselves?

andyps said:

And I wish I'd seen the convoy of P1, LaF, Veyron SS and SLS Black - must have been great to see those cars together let alone travel in them!

There were some other cars too, including an F40 (which I'd never been in before). There are some very generous people with nice cars out there! It wasn't all in one convoy, unfortunately - maybe next time

[epom]

Congrats Flemke. Looks a beauty and looks like the running in process was good fun also. Nothing like seeing the latest super/hyper car covered in road grime to warm the cockles of ones heart.
Expectations both realistic and unrealistic for this car were extremely high. I see how you have rated it at 8.65 out of 10 earlier, had you expected this to be higher or maybe even lower going test drives etc? Or do you feel that more time in the car is needed ? Those questions are based on the P1 as a road car. Again, well done and thanks for sharing.

[roystinho]

Some great insights there Joe, Max(?) and Flemke of course. Cheers

[isaldiri]

Joe911 said:

The ISIS being almost touch-screen only is also very poor UI. It is slow, and you have to look at it to see the buttons and so take your eyes off the road. It is slow and the menus are very poorly laid out. All the same as the 12C/650S I would assume. The satnav sometimes thought we were in a field and kept zooming in and out annoyingly. Have they based the thing on MS Windows, it seems like it. Boot up time is another issue - especially for ISIS, but also for the car itself - why does it take so long to wake up? The computer system really do need some work.

....

Do you know anything about ISIS and computers ... why do they seem so poor? It may be that (as is often the way) that the software engineers are good talented people and that the system was released before it was finished (as I suspect happened on the 12C). That does not in my view justify the terrible UI though It's a real shame it lets down an epic car.

Really like your nickname for the Iris system

Perhaps I can provide a bit of info/observations as I have used some of the various systems in the 12c a bit.

Fuel gauge - it does move around a bit but no worse than a lot of cars with an analogue fuel gauge I think. Until very recently, in the 12C it would never ever show you a full fuel gauge... The range reading is hilariously off though I agree. That was one of the first things I removed from the home screen to show another bit of less useless information instead. The rest of the on screen menus I think are alright if a bit slow in response admittedly. There is a shortcut to using the lift system so you shouldn't need to go through the whole rigmarole of finding and selecting the lift through the menu system. If I remember correctly it's simply just pushing the menu stalk up (like you would with a right turn signal on the indic stalk). Or at least that's how it works on the 12C/650 but I doubt the P1 would be very much different on that.

DAB is available as a retrofit on the 12c but seems to have just missed being included in the P1. The entire windscreen needs to be changed on the 12c though.....

Iris (or the current Iris) is some parrot/Android system not windows. Part of the issue I'm told by a friend who went digging around his car is the basic Iris2 hardware unit is pretty lacking in memory and processing power. The first iris system IMO had much better user interface but it was horribly crashy, particularly for the nav. The current Iris2 at least works but it's overall less intuitive and as you pointed out, pretty slow. On the maps side at least though, there is a function you can do to turn off maps zooming in and out around junctions/roundabouts. It's buried somewhere in the list of settings. Probably it's fair to say in car entertainment hasn't been Mclaren Automotive's strong point....

Really interesting to read your thoughts on the car as well, thanks for taking the time to write that.

Edited by isaldiri on Monday 3rd November 23:56

[greygoose]

I'm surprised the computers are so poor, you would think that this could be outsourced for a better experience.

Flemke, did you drive the Ferrari at all and what did you think of it?

[flemke]

isaldiri said:

flemke said:

I'd say about 8.65

Interesting your thoughts on the car flemke. Just wondering as well, you mentioned Chris Goodwin and a couple of other Mclaren people said they had spent a lot of work on making the P1 rewarding to drive at non crazy speeds... Would you say they succeeded in that respect?

Well, it's a far cry from the F1, but then pretty much everything else is too.
The brake feel (great) and steering feel (not so great) I mentioned above. For me the steering feel is more important, because it is the one form of feedback that the driver is receiving 100% of the time. In the case of stiction, IMO that is less of a nuisance at low speeds than at higher ones.
Excellent seating position and ergonomics a major plus. Instrument binnacle good, including large MPH reading which, when it is smack in between two whole numbers, will tend to oscillate back and forth several times a second between the two of them - a cool touch. Instantaneous torque is a pleasing feature at all speeds, and the way it shifts gears, although less spectacular at lower speeds, is nonetheless to be savoured at all speeds.
The experience is fine at lower speeds, although it is not an experience in the way that driving the F1 is.

[flemke]

Ultrasound said:

flemke said:

Monty Python said:

Looks like you'll need an army of trained ferrets to clean some of the nooks and crannies on that beast, but it's great to see that it'll be used properly and not kept in a warm garage and few warm oil every week.

So, marks out of ten?

I'd say about 8.65

On that scale the car with the daft name would have been a 10.15 then? 918 be 7.12088?

The Laffer a 10.15? More like a 1.15.

[flemke]

Joe911 said:

The interior ergonomics are interesting - loads of really good stuff with plenty of things well-positioned - though also some stupid stuff. The main screen is good and the side screens fine. The left stalk control for the on-screen menus is not entirely intuitive - the same stalk controls al the menus but also the suspension lift system - whenever I fumbled for the lift system I ended up adjusting the interior lighting. I am in the software industry and feel that I am pretty confident with controlling computers but it had me frustrated many times. The ISIS screen is too low - you have to look down to see it and so take you focus off the road - it needs to be mounted higher up - and when you move you hand to press a button on the screen you obscure the button and so can't see where to press. The Drive/Neutral/Reverse buttons are too far back on the centre console, you really have to move your arm and look where to find them rather than simply dropping your hand down naturally. I'm tallish but found the seats are comfortable and pedals seem good and the wheel in a good position. I didn't like the wipers (wiper) - it obscures too much vision while it is wiping. There is pretty fair luggage space. Build quality is really excellent - loads of really nice details all over the car.

I was really surprised how poor the electronic systems were - I always had the view that McLaren electronics, with Tag etc. were world leaders. Maybe they outsourced ISIS and the other electronics - very poor - both in terms of UI, intuitiveness, and speed of response. The fuel remaining gauge generates almost random numbers - we had no miles left - but 10 litres in the tank, and at other times a 200 mile difference in range from one moment to the next. Maybe it's just faulty?

I have to mention the IPAS - some marketing numpty had a stupid idea and I can only assume the engineers rolled their eyes and tutted. When you switch on the car and drive you get all the power - engine and electric combined - it's awesome - all the power always on demand via the right foot. We did 1500 miles in 3 days and never did we deplete the battery - really effective. There's a button on the centre console labelled 'boost' - what it does is switch OFF the electric assistance, making the engine feel a little limp - but you can then press the IPAS button on the steering wheel to bring the electric assistance back in. WTF - why take it out in the first place! Also, when you do press the IPAS button from boost mode there seems like a delay before it comes in and the overall effect is much less satisfying than the normal mode. I tried to play with the DRS, but despite it showing in the display I really couldn't get it working - I really need to reread that part of the manual.

There is no DAB ... I mean WTF!

The ISIS being almost touch-screen only is also very poor UI. It is slow, and you have to look at it to see the buttons and so take your eyes off the road. It is slow and the menus are very poorly laid out. All the same as the 12C/650S I would assume. The satnav sometimes thought we were in a field and kept zooming in and out annoyingly. Have they based the thing on MS Windows, it seems like it. Boot up time is another issue - especially for ISIS, but also for the car itself - why does it take so long to wake up? The computer system really do need some work.


So, there are some negatives for sure, but that should not detract from the incredible achievement that the car is - as a driving weapon it is really devastating. I'm really lucky to have had a play, thank you.

It is fascinating to see what matters to different people.
Joe has huge knowledge about software (and fortunately for him he also seems to be interested in the stuff), and thus he will always be a scrutinising critic whenever he finds it. I myself couldn't really care less about it - in any car, it is what it is, superb or mediocre.
In contrast, my background is design-related, and if a car didn't look good to my eye I could not own it, no matter how well it drove. If it did look good to my eye, I probably would not notice whether it had any software.

[Ultrasound]

flemke said:

Ultrasound said:

flemke said:

Monty Python said:

Looks like you'll need an army of trained ferrets to clean some of the nooks and crannies on that beast, but it's great to see that it'll be used properly and not kept in a warm garage and few warm oil every week.

So, marks out of ten?

I'd say about 8.65

On that scale the car with the daft name would have been a 10.15 then? 918 be 7.12088?

The Laffer a 10.15? More like a 1.15.

I'm just working to the '8.65' system though I did think about 1.15. All joking aside, how do the two compare? What are your thoughts, having obviously spent some time in or about the red car, both on it's own and in comparison to the P1?

[flemke]

Max_Torque said:

Unfortunately, marketing got involved with IPAS and DRS and wanted an "F1 connection" hence these buttons! They really don't do anything you can't do, or should be able to do with just you foot!

I can see that for the IPAS, but does it apply as well to DRS?
One could say that, for the road or even for track use by the population likely to be owning a P1, the DRS function is ludicrously OTT, but is it actually a function that could be structured or enabled differently?

[Sway]

In terms of it being automatically integrated into driving, I'd imagine it'd be pretty simple to configure it such that upon 95% throttle, and steering straight, the system recognises the desire for fast acceleration and so feathers the wing to drs mode.

[flemke]

andyps said:

Max_Torque said:

Unfortunately, marketing got involved with IPAS and DRS and wanted an "F1 connection" hence these buttons! They really don't do anything you can't do, or should be able to do with just you foot!

I have no evidence to base this on, but as a marketer have to add some defence here - my suspicion is that the marketers were responding to those buyers who fit into the category Flemke refers to as possessors rather than users of the car - they would be buying a car from an F1 manufacturer and expect some F1 features in it. Marketing respond to that need rather than creating it in order to sell 375 cars at the right price. I will add that it is a shame this is necessary, but marketers only respond to customers expectations (although sometimes customers may not have directly expressed the expectation).

And I wish I'd seen the convoy of P1, LaF, Veyron SS and SLS Black - must have been great to see those cars together let alone travel in them!

If I may, I would repeat what I have said before, on here and to McLaren. The best Formula One feature to put on the P1 would be/would have been carbon/carbon discs. They are a genuine performance enhancer with a direct link to the most sophisticated racing technology, and not something in use on any other road car.

[Monty Python]

flemke said:

Well, it's a far cry from the F1, but then pretty much everything else is too.
The brake feel (great) and steering feel (not so great) I mentioned above. For me the steering feel is more important, because it is the one form of feedback that the driver is receiving 100% of the time. In the case of stiction, IMO that is less of a nuisance at low speeds than at higher ones.
Excellent seating position and ergonomics a major plus. Instrument binnacle good, including large MPH reading which, when it is smack in between two whole numbers, will tend to oscillate back and forth several times a second between the two of them - a cool touch. Instantaneous torque is a pleasing feature at all speeds, and the way it shifts gears, although less spectacular at lower speeds, is nonetheless to be savoured at all speeds.
The experience is fine at lower speeds, although it is not an experience in the way that driving the F1 is.

Would you put this down to the increase in electronic driver aids, or is it something unique to the F1 (I can imagine that the central driving position makes it kind of unique)? From watching the Jay Leno videos, it appears that the F1 needs a lot more "effort" - it's not just a "get in and drive" car.

[Joe911]

Sway said:

In terms of it being automatically integrated into driving, I'd imagine it'd be pretty simple to configure it such that upon 95% throttle, and steering straight, the system recognises the desire for fast acceleration and so feathers the wing to drs mode.

I could see problems with that. In a fast kink - where you need the downforce - I could imagine you want the extra downforce slightly before you start turning the wheel. So I don't see how the car could predict that and switch off the DRS in time.
I think DRS is really a track-day feature, which could be fun - though no idea how well it works and how noticeable it is when on/off.
Personally I could accept the DRS feature (if it works noticeably), but the IPAS is a shameful embarrassment.

[Joe911]

flemke said:

It is fascinating to see what matters to different people.
Joe has huge knowledge about software (and fortunately for him he also seems to be interested in the stuff), and thus he will always be a scrutinising critic whenever he finds it. I myself couldn't really care less about it - in any car, it is what it is, superb or mediocre.
In contrast, my background is design-related, and if a car didn't look good to my eye I could not own it, no matter how well it drove. If it did look good to my eye, I probably would not notice whether it had any software.

Yes indeed. To be fair I think that as vehicles that go fast and change gear and stop etc. both P1 and LaF are incredible achievements, stunningly epic.

Though I have not driven a LaF - just a short passenger run, it would seem to me they compare like this:

Design
P1 - 9/10 (some cool stuff, but not a fan of the front)
LaF - 6/10 (it is mostly ugly, the Ferrari halo helps a little)

Powertrain
P1 - 8/10 (small capacity turbo not good - though very nicely integrated hybrid)
LaF - 10/10 (enhanced NA 12 is the dogs)

Systems (computers etc.)
P1 - 5/10 (all the issues I listed, poor synthesised noise)
LaF - (sorry can't score it as I didn't try it myself)

Build quality
P1 - 9/10 (almost perfect, some QA issues)
LaF - 7/10 (some really shonky work)

Cynical marketing
P1 - 10/10
LaF - 10/10

Overall Experience
P1 - 9/10 (better looking, better built)
LaF - 9/10 (better engine responsiveness, better noise)

[Silver Smudger]

flemke said:

...Car is too wide, which is always bad...

Driving position excellent... ... and from within there is the illusion that the car is small.

Do you mean that the car, although wide, feels small enough to drive easily, or rather that the car is wider than it feels from the driver's seat, and difficult to deal with in tight streets?

[anonymous-user]

Sway said:

In terms of it being automatically integrated into driving, I'd imagine it'd be pretty simple to configure it such that upon 95% throttle, and steering straight, the system recognises the desire for fast acceleration and so feathers the wing to drs mode.

It's pretty easy to take the friction adaption and current dynamic loading value from the stability control, take demanded rearwheel torque from the EMS/Hybrid controller and come up with a blending algorithm that will only deploy the DRS when there is sufficient traction to do so. With some basic "history" filtering from previous drive conditions, and some adaption (learning) it's not hard to make a car that can put itself into "Low drag" mode without the driver having to press the button themselves.

[Sway]

Or that.

Although I feel my solution is more elegant.

[Sway]

Flippancy aside, does the wing me during normal driving, other than as an airbrake?

Wondering if there would be an advantage in having continually variable drag/downforce adjustment rather than on or off?

Probably not in normal driving!