Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
ex1 said:
Storer said:
The trouble with cars that get to this level of value is that they end up locked away and are only brought out for shows. Trailered there and back.
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
Taxation on cars depends where in the world you are. The reason these things have appreciated to such a level is the amount of people with vast sums of cash has risen at a rate never before seen and assets such as these are finite. The F1 is the modern 250 GTO, the question is what will be the next F1?An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
For some years my thesis on investing in "elite" collectible cars has been that
- there is an incredible and growing number of persons who have far more wealth than they need,
- many of these people like to "enjoy" (including showing off to other people) their wealth,
- a disproportionate % of these people are male,
- and that exceptional, expensive cars are a very attractive means for boys to show off their wealth.
Cars are mobile and can be shown off at almost any time and place, they do not require the observer to travel to see them (unlike houses), they do not require specialised skills or professional support in order to be enjoyed (unlike yachts and jet planes), they can be appreciated by most people (unlike art), and they can be fun (unlike stocks and bonds).
Hence I expect the collectible car market to continue its upward trend (allowing of course for volatility along the way). I think the main long-term risks to it are anti-car sentiment stoked by the green lobby and, potentially, difficulty for either regulatory or economic reasons in conveniently buying petrol.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
OK, so that was way off topic. Sorry.
Storer said:
flemke said:
ex1 said:
Storer said:
The trouble with cars that get to this level of value is that they end up locked away and are only brought out for shows. Trailered there and back.
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
Taxation on cars depends where in the world you are. The reason these things have appreciated to such a level is the amount of people with vast sums of cash has risen at a rate never before seen and assets such as these are finite. The F1 is the modern 250 GTO, the question is what will be the next F1?An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
For some years my thesis on investing in "elite" collectible cars has been that
- there is an incredible and growing number of persons who have far more wealth than they need,
- many of these people like to "enjoy" (including showing off to other people) their wealth,
- a disproportionate % of these people are male,
- and that exceptional, expensive cars are a very attractive means for boys to show off their wealth.
Cars are mobile and can be shown off at almost any time and place, they do not require the observer to travel to see them (unlike houses), they do not require specialised skills or professional support in order to be enjoyed (unlike yachts and jet planes), they can be appreciated by most people (unlike art), and they can be fun (unlike stocks and bonds).
Hence I expect the collectible car market to continue its upward trend (allowing of course for volatility along the way). I think the main long-term risks to it are anti-car sentiment stoked by the green lobby and, potentially, difficulty for either regulatory or economic reasons in conveniently buying petrol.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
OK, so that was way off topic. Sorry.
Certainly this market will run out of steam at some point. As a late friend of mine used to say, "Trees don't grow to the sky". But I don't think we're there yet, or even near there.
Storer said:
There must come a point when these prices must become unpalatable even to the super rich.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
Compared to art, super yatchts, private jets etc F1 prices look pretty good value to these people.I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
I can't see anything changing without a revolution and I can't see that happening any time soon. Trump is testiment to how much we worship those who have played the capitalist game well. As is Flemke! They are our deities, the people we look to for leadership and hang on their every word.
Who is going to lead the charge to redistribute some of Flemkes millions? After all he seems like quite a nice bloke who can be quite persuasive when he wants to be!
flemke said:
Storer said:
flemke said:
ex1 said:
Storer said:
The trouble with cars that get to this level of value is that they end up locked away and are only brought out for shows. Trailered there and back.
An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
Taxation on cars depends where in the world you are. The reason these things have appreciated to such a level is the amount of people with vast sums of cash has risen at a rate never before seen and assets such as these are finite. The F1 is the modern 250 GTO, the question is what will be the next F1?An owner like Flemke, that paid the original (bargain now!) purchase price, are becoming rare and someone who has paid £5m, £10m or more will be reluctant to drive them on the public highway and their insurance company may even prohibit it.
It is a real shame that cars have become investments. Taxation is partly to blame, with no liability on the profits made by the individual collector. Also the ability to pass on to the next generation without tax issues.
However, it is not just tax that has seen these massive price rises. Some big boys have accumulated truly enormous wealth that enables them to indulge in massively expensive toys!
For some years my thesis on investing in "elite" collectible cars has been that
- there is an incredible and growing number of persons who have far more wealth than they need,
- many of these people like to "enjoy" (including showing off to other people) their wealth,
- a disproportionate % of these people are male,
- and that exceptional, expensive cars are a very attractive means for boys to show off their wealth.
Cars are mobile and can be shown off at almost any time and place, they do not require the observer to travel to see them (unlike houses), they do not require specialised skills or professional support in order to be enjoyed (unlike yachts and jet planes), they can be appreciated by most people (unlike art), and they can be fun (unlike stocks and bonds).
Hence I expect the collectible car market to continue its upward trend (allowing of course for volatility along the way). I think the main long-term risks to it are anti-car sentiment stoked by the green lobby and, potentially, difficulty for either regulatory or economic reasons in conveniently buying petrol.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
OK, so that was way off topic. Sorry.
Certainly this market will run out of steam at some point. As a late friend of mine used to say, "Trees don't grow to the sky". But I don't think we're there yet, or even near there.
Look at art (paintings). £30m, £50m, £100m? There will always be those with SO much money that they care not. Also paintings and cars are easily moved (for exmaple on one's superyacht) and are very fungible. If you run into "local difficulties" then you can simply move and liquidate!
ex1 said:
Storer said:
There must come a point when these prices must become unpalatable even to the super rich.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
Compared to art, super yatchts, private jets etc F1 prices look pretty good value to these people.I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
I can't see anything changing without a revolution and I can't see that happening any time soon. Trump is testiment to how much we worship those who have played the capitalist game well. As is Flemke! They are our deities, the people we look to for leadership and hang on their every word.
Who is going to lead the charge to redistribute some of Flemkes millions? After all he seems like quite a nice bloke who can be quite persuasive when he wants to be!
The ultimate form of wealth distribution will not escape anyone however rich they are, its called death! in 99 years time even Bill Gates and co will just be dust, their assets re distributed, the state will take a nice chunk and the rest no doubt then squandered by those who do not understand the meaning of the term hard work. The cycle has continued that way since we came out of the trees and started acquiring things. Even mighty empires come and go.
The Grim reaper is the controller of it all :-) so enjoy it while you can, that's my plan anyway.
The Grim reaper is the controller of it all :-) so enjoy it while you can, that's my plan anyway.
ex1 said:
PAUL500 said:
The ultimate form of wealth distribution will not escape anyone however rich they are, its called death.
Not sure I agree. The beneficiaries of those with extreme wealth will pay very little if any IHT. Very little of it is redistributed to the masses on death.The rest of their money is going to charitable foundations. Supposedly so far Gates has "given away" over 28 billion.
I wonder if he sits down at the end of each day and thinks "f
k me! Its so much harder work giving money away than making it. Now I know how Brewster felt!"A lot of the super super wealthy have all started this little club where they pledge to use their money for good like Iron Man and they also mostly seem to agree on only leaving a very very small proportion of their wealth to their kids.
flemke said:
ex1 said:
Storer said:
There must come a point when these prices must become unpalatable even to the super rich.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
Compared to art, super yatchts, private jets etc F1 prices look pretty good value to these people.I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
I can't see anything changing without a revolution and I can't see that happening any time soon. Trump is testiment to how much we worship those who have played the capitalist game well. As is Flemke! They are our deities, the people we look to for leadership and hang on their every word.
Who is going to lead the charge to redistribute some of Flemkes millions? After all he seems like quite a nice bloke who can be quite persuasive when he wants to be!
ex1 said:
PAUL500 said:
The ultimate form of wealth distribution will not escape anyone however rich they are, its called death.
Not sure I agree. The beneficiaries of those with extreme wealth will pay very little if any IHT. Very little of it is redistributed to the masses on death.
epom said:
With enough money you can do anything, even live forever
No one lives forever, no one. But with advances in modern science and my high level income, it's not crazy to think I can live to be 245, maybe 300. Heck, I just read in the newspaper that they put a pig heart in some guy from Russia. Do you know what that means?frankenstein12 said:
Not quite right. Gates has said his kids will "only" receive a very small proportion of his wealth. Rumour mill states around 10 Million each which albeit not small change is a drop in the ocean to his 50 odd billion. Buffet has pledged 44 million to his kids out of his 40 odd billion.
The rest of their money is going to charitable foundations. Supposedly so far Gates has "given away" over 28 billion.
I wonder if he sits down at the end of each day and thinks "fk me! Its so much harder work giving money away than making it. Now I know how Brewster felt!"
A lot of the super super wealthy have all started this little club where they pledge to use their money for good like Iron Man and they also mostly seem to agree on only leaving a very very small proportion of their wealth to their kids.
Its still their club and they will decide which causes win some of their charity and which direction they go, hardly the state redistibuting wealth as the previous posted implied and its limited to a few north americans. The rest of their money is going to charitable foundations. Supposedly so far Gates has "given away" over 28 billion.
I wonder if he sits down at the end of each day and thinks "f
k me! Its so much harder work giving money away than making it. Now I know how Brewster felt!"A lot of the super super wealthy have all started this little club where they pledge to use their money for good like Iron Man and they also mostly seem to agree on only leaving a very very small proportion of their wealth to their kids.
ex1 said:
PAUL500 said:
The ultimate form of wealth distribution will not escape anyone however rich they are, its called death.
Not sure I agree. The beneficiaries of those with extreme wealth will pay very little if any IHT. Very little of it is redistributed to the masses on death.
That depends very much on the domicile of the deceased. The people being discussed, Gates and Buffett, are US domiciliaries. They cannot give their money away before death [except to charities] in the hope of avoiding inheritance tax without paying US "Gift Tax". Their estates will have to pay 40% inheritance tax to the US government and, depending on the state of which each is resident, there may be further inheritance tax owed. I would not call 40+% "very little".
Not every wealthy person is an oligarch, kleptocrat or tax dodger.
frankenstein12 said:
flemke said:
ex1 said:
Storer said:
There must come a point when these prices must become unpalatable even to the super rich.
I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
Compared to art, super yatchts, private jets etc F1 prices look pretty good value to these people.I also think that over the next 20 years we will see a political will to reign in the growing wealth of this relatively small number of individuals. Brexit and Trump are the start, but many other countries will go the same way. It is extreme wealth, and the power it gives, that the majority want reigned in.
I can't see anything changing without a revolution and I can't see that happening any time soon. Trump is testiment to how much we worship those who have played the capitalist game well. As is Flemke! They are our deities, the people we look to for leadership and hang on their every word.
Who is going to lead the charge to redistribute some of Flemkes millions? After all he seems like quite a nice bloke who can be quite persuasive when he wants to be!
I pointed out that it was complicated in the hope of precluding from this thread simplistic mantras about wealth from either the Rightist or the Leftist point of view.
flemke said:
That depends very much on the domicile of the deceased. The people being discussed, Gates and Buffett, are US domiciliaries. They cannot give their money away before death [except to charities] in the hope of avoiding inheritance tax without paying US "Gift Tax". Their estates will have to pay 40% inheritance tax to the US government and, depending on the state of which each is resident, there may be further inheritance tax owed. I would not call 40+% "very little".
Not every wealthy person is an oligarch, kleptocrat or tax dodger.
We were discussing the growing uber wealthy who fuel the price rises we have seen with classic cars such as the F1. They have access to tax advisors and favourable regimes that mean the tax they pay is more dependant on how much inconvenience/hassle they are comfortable with.
I am not suggesting every wealth person is …. I was simply responding to PAUL500's suggestion that wealth was redistributed on death.
Edited by ex1 on Monday 20th February 20:19
My point was more that, as the saying goes, you cannot take it with you, it will get passed on soon enough, whether it be to the state or relatives etc, so why stockpile it well beyond what you actually would ever need, simply enjoy it while you can and maybe get enjoyment seeing others benefiting from it in your own lifetime.
Total loss said:
flemke said:
More recently, a long-tail GTR (which needed restoration work) sold, AIUI, for about a 25-30% discount to the road car price. That seemed to me to be about right.
Would that be the White car / ex Gulf race car sold by a Swiss dealer ?flemke said:
Total loss said:
flemke said:
More recently, a long-tail GTR (which needed restoration work) sold, AIUI, for about a 25-30% discount to the road car price. That seemed to me to be about right.
Would that be the White car / ex Gulf race car sold by a Swiss dealer ?Total loss said:
flemke said:
Total loss said:
flemke said:
More recently, a long-tail GTR (which needed restoration work) sold, AIUI, for about a 25-30% discount to the road car price. That seemed to me to be about right.
Would that be the White car / ex Gulf race car sold by a Swiss dealer ?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff