Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
flemke said:
Really the only difference between a standard road car with the high-downforce kit and the LM "version" is the engine's extra 30-35 BHP and lbs ft.
Is the rev limiter of the LM spec engine really 1000 rpm higher than the standard road car? That would put it at 8500 (if i'm not wrong) which would be above the rev limit that Mclaren had reset for Andy Wallace's record speed run....Is it not the point of the HDF to get all those horses around the twisties, not just up and down a drag strip? a worthy trade off.
I should also think it is a lot more planted doing 200mph down a straight than a standard bodied car would ever be.
Plus they just look even nicer, its the first thing that would be done on the one I will own in another life!
I should also think it is a lot more planted doing 200mph down a straight than a standard bodied car would ever be.
Plus they just look even nicer, its the first thing that would be done on the one I will own in another life!
douglas111 said:
I actually prefer the first F1 shown at the launch that has the high wing mirrors and fog (?) lights next to the front air intakes. Incidentally, is that the only car with those lights?
The "Clinic Model" is the one you reference, but it was just a styling model built 9 months before the first real prototype with a proper carbon chassis was completed, so not a real car. The high mirrors were eliminated from the design almost immediately as they were not in conformance to the laws in the UK at the time. The fog lights did appear on XP1, XP2 and XP3, but the determination was made to eliminate them as the space was needed for additional cooling so they phased out during development and no production F1 features them. douglas111 said:
What is the extra HDF kit, or HDF+ ? I assume the shark fin-like air outlets above the wheels but can't think what else.
Thzt's correct - the "Extra" in the Extra High Downforce Kit which is unique to two cars adds the ventilated topshell over the front wheels which mimics the style of vents found on the longtails. epom said:
Are those wheels painted or the natural colour though ? IMO painting the wheels the body colour would be trying way too hard.
Wheels on this car are plain silver - roughly the same as those on the standard 17" road car wheels, but not a match to the paint on the car which is "Dark Silver". There is a Dark Silver F1 in Australia (#009) which at one point wore matched body-colored wheels, but they were changed when the car was resold many years ago. Hard to tell as the car is in the shade in this photo, but here's a look. I actually liked it. http://www.thewatchersnetwork.com/supercars/images...
>8^)
ER
Peloton25 said:
I know you aren't generally fond of silver wheels - but did you find that car visually appealing after the transformation? Photographic evidence suggests it went through two phases of refits - first with the repaint and standard HDF Kit, and then another round to fit the upgraded engine and "Extra" HDF Kit. Was your friend the one to have that car repainted from Midnight Blue Pearl or did he purchase it after that first round took place?
>8^)
ER
They put on the HDK at the same time as they installed the LM engine, and when I first saw the car it was literally straight from the factory after the work had been done. It was 16 years ago but I am pretty sure that those front vents were the flared version that it has had ever since.>8^)
ER
Yes, my friend was the one who spec'ed the paint and the interior. He is an unusual guy who does things his own way. For example, at one time he had about 15-20 cars and they all were silver, because he believed that silver showed dirt the least of any colour.
In the case of this F1, his colour choices were, to me, reminiscent of what one would do to a Bentley or Rolls. This is the exact opposite of what I would have done, as I think the F1 should be treated as a sports car not a GT. Given the aesthetic that he chose, however, I think he did a great job of creating harmony with contrast in his choices of colour and materials.
Wrt the wheel paint, IIRC the wheels have always been that colour, which is the standard OZ factory silver. With all the cars my friend has had, I have never known him to change the colour of a wheel from silver, whereas I would pretty much always change the colour from silver. It's something we have often debated.
douglas111 said:
epom said:
IMO painting the wheels the body colour would be trying way too hard.
I with you there.Weren't the LM wheels darker though, and perhaps close to that paint scheme? Mind you, unless they matched perfectly then it would probably look bad.
McLaren decided to use the same wheels on the LMs:
The wheels are different sizes from what was standard on the F1 road cars. This required different tyres, which was not a problem. What was and remains a problem is that the front tyre is sufficiently wider than standard that McLaren have to reduce the steering lock in order to maintain clearance. The standard f1 does not have the greatest turning circle, but with the wider wheels it becomes kind of ridiculous. Mini-roundabouts require three-point turns.
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
Really the only difference between a standard road car with the high-downforce kit and the LM "version" is the engine's extra 30-35 BHP and lbs ft.
Is the rev limiter of the LM spec engine really 1000 rpm higher than the standard road car? That would put it at 8500 (if i'm not wrong) which would be above the rev limit that Mclaren had reset for Andy Wallace's record speed run....
PAUL500 said:
Is it not the point of the HDF to get all those horses around the twisties, not just up and down a drag strip? a worthy trade off.
I should also think it is a lot more planted doing 200mph down a straight than a standard bodied car would ever be.
Plus they just look even nicer, its the first thing that would be done on the one I will own in another life!
To be sure, there is a functional point to the HDK. The question is whether, in road driving, one actually needs that downforce. I would say no.I should also think it is a lot more planted doing 200mph down a straight than a standard bodied car would ever be.
Plus they just look even nicer, its the first thing that would be done on the one I will own in another life!
As to whether the HDK looks nicer, I would accept that a GTR is a good looking car, and that there are a few road cars that look good with big ostentatious rear wings.
On the other hand, I think the standard F1 is a particularly handsome car, which does not need an added wing in order to look dynamic and purposeful, and that people who change standard F1 road cars to HDK specials are usually trying too hard.
When an F1 looks better with the HDK, it is typically because the paint choice was wrong to begin with, and the wing helps to compensate for that mistake.
Whilst we're back talking colours, I've known since eight years old I'm colour-blind - however only very recently found out exactly what type, I have strong protanopia.
As cars are the things I have most interest in that come in virtually all colours, I've been wondering how my perception influences my opinions on the aesthetics of certain cars.
Here's an example to illustrate my vision (the two left pictures look identical to me):
I've always seemed to prefer blue cars, however it seems that the shades and tones of blues I like aren't that common (such as Mazda's Mariner or Montego Blue, your original 'smurf' blue, etc.) I also love the deep, rich reds such as Candy Apple or Rosso Scuderia.
Obviously it's almost impossible for me to understand what 'normal' people see in a colour, but I was wondering if you might be able to figure out what it is that makes a colour appeal to me, but perhaps not hang together as well for others?
I'm thinking of a respray of my Montego Blue MX5, and want to make sure I don't go for a colour that looks great to me, but poor to most, when I'm sure there will be colours that broadly look the same to me and the rest of the world!
As cars are the things I have most interest in that come in virtually all colours, I've been wondering how my perception influences my opinions on the aesthetics of certain cars.
Here's an example to illustrate my vision (the two left pictures look identical to me):
I've always seemed to prefer blue cars, however it seems that the shades and tones of blues I like aren't that common (such as Mazda's Mariner or Montego Blue, your original 'smurf' blue, etc.) I also love the deep, rich reds such as Candy Apple or Rosso Scuderia.
Obviously it's almost impossible for me to understand what 'normal' people see in a colour, but I was wondering if you might be able to figure out what it is that makes a colour appeal to me, but perhaps not hang together as well for others?
I'm thinking of a respray of my Montego Blue MX5, and want to make sure I don't go for a colour that looks great to me, but poor to most, when I'm sure there will be colours that broadly look the same to me and the rest of the world!
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
You are correct.
Impressive that, BMW were really conservative with the road car then. I don't suppose you had ever thought the F1 needed a high rev limit than the existing 7500?
], so I cannot really blame them for refusing. If I asked now they might consent, but there is no need.
Totally agree on the rear wing, I accept it is there for a very real racing purpose, but if had been more subtle the kit would be perfect on a road car as well, it does look like the ones the boy racers buy from Halfords to self tapper onto the boot of there Jap cars!
As to whether the HDK looks nicer, I would accept that a GTR is a good looking car, and that there are a few road cars that look good with big ostentatious rear wings.
On the other hand, I think the standard F1 is a particularly handsome car, which does not need an added wing in order to look dynamic and purposeful, and that people who change standard F1 road cars to HDK specials are usually trying too hard.
When an F1 looks better with the HDK, it is typically because the paint choice was wrong to begin with, and the wing helps to compensate for that mistake.
flemke said:
PAUL500 said:
Is it not the point of the HDF to get all those horses around the twisties, not just up and down a drag strip? a worthy trade off.
I should also think it is a lot more planted doing 200mph down a straight than a standard bodied car would ever be.
Plus they just look even nicer, its the first thing that would be done on the one I will own in another life!
To be sure, there is a functional point to the HDK. The question is whether, in road driving, one actually needs that downforce. I would say no.I should also think it is a lot more planted doing 200mph down a straight than a standard bodied car would ever be.
Plus they just look even nicer, its the first thing that would be done on the one I will own in another life!
As to whether the HDK looks nicer, I would accept that a GTR is a good looking car, and that there are a few road cars that look good with big ostentatious rear wings.
On the other hand, I think the standard F1 is a particularly handsome car, which does not need an added wing in order to look dynamic and purposeful, and that people who change standard F1 road cars to HDK specials are usually trying too hard.
When an F1 looks better with the HDK, it is typically because the paint choice was wrong to begin with, and the wing helps to compensate for that mistake.
flemke said:
They put on the HDK at the same time as they installed the LM engine, and when I first saw the car it was literally straight from the factory after the work had been done. It was 16 years ago but I am pretty sure that those front vents were the flared version that it has had ever since.
Thanks - very interesting to learn that. With the other example that shares these specifications, chassis 073, there was a two-stage process in its upgrades. Here are some photos of what I believe should almost certainly be 018, showing it without those topshell vents and taken at Schafer Automobile. I know of no other F1 that ever fit this description and these are the earliest photos that I've seen of the car with the HDF Kit.
>8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Sunday 5th March 07:03
Peloton25 said:
flemke said:
They put on the HDK at the same time as they installed the LM engine, and when I first saw the car it was literally straight from the factory after the work had been done. It was 16 years ago but I am pretty sure that those front vents were the flared version that it has had ever since.
Thanks - very interesting to learn that. With the other example that shares these specifications, chassis 073, there was a two-stage process in its upgrades. Here are some photos of what I believe should almost certainly be 018, showing it without those topshell vents and taken at Schafer Automobile. I know of no other F1 that ever fit this description and these are the earliest photos that I've seen of the car with the HDF Kit.
>8^)
ER
I had misread your previous post and thought you had said that there were photos of the car with the flat-style vents (such as were in the '95/6 GTRs and LMs) instead of flared vents. He confirmed that the car only ever had flared vents (also confirmed that he made all the paint/trim choices and those were changed at the time of the engine swap).
As you, ER, I think know, he used to keep the car at Schäfer, so that certainly is the same car in the photos.
I saw the car a lot of times and cannot recall it without the vents, but perhaps the first time, straight from the factory, it did not have them.
I was not aware that the two cars with LM engines were the only two with the flared vents. I would be surprised if MSO would refuse to put them on other F1s with the HDK, but likewise it would surprise me if no other F1 owner, in the process of tarting up his car with the HDK, had requested the flared vents. Maybe those owners were not aware of the option, or maybe I am underestimating the maturity of the owners. The next time I speak with HWS I'll try to remember to ask about it.
Eta: I mentioned to my friend that there had been published an interview with the present owner. After we spoke, he found it and then texted me his opinion. I shan't go into detail, but suffice to say that my friend disagrees with some of what the present owner said even more than I do.
Edited by flemke on Sunday 5th March 10:12
flemke said:
More is usually better, but I would point out that Mika Hakkinen, whose car control skills were okay, said that the standard F1 "definitely has enough power", and Walter Rohrl, another fellow who could steer a motorcar, said that the upper limit on usable BHP in a road car was about 600.
An interesting comment from WR. Lacking his skills for car control at speed and spending a large majority of my time now on road driving rather than track days, I'm focused on what and where peak torque is - though as folks will appreciate, bhp and torque are related as power is calculated from torque and rpm. Based on experience with modifying a 911T my view is that road cars are more satisfying to drive when torque is 'adequate' in the low- and mid-range, while high rpm and high power don't matter so much. Other viewpoints are available.
If we take 7000 rpm as approaching the limit, Rohrl's 600 bhp requires 450 lb ft. That won't be max torque however as at rpm below 5252 torque is numerically greater than bhp. 600 lb ft at 3000 rpm, with bhp at just over 340, that'll do nicely.
flemke said:
As it happens, yesterday I spoke with my friend and asked him about the vents.
<snip>
Thanks for looking into it. <snip>
flemke said:
I was not aware that the two cars with LM engines were the only two with the flared vents. I would be surprised if MSO would refuse to put them on other F1s with the HDK, but likewise it would surprise me if no other F1 owner, in the process of tarting up his car with the HDK, had requested the flared vents. Maybe those owners were not aware of the option, or maybe I am underestimating the maturity of the owners. The next time I speak with HWS I'll try to remember to ask about it.
Indeed - 018 and 073 are the only ones ever seen wearing the flared vents. There is actually only one other HDF Kit-equipped road car that has any vents at all and that is chassis 014, the white NY car with vents that copy those found on the early GTRs/LMs. 
Several of the choices within the interior were also redone to mimic those of the F1 LM on that car.
flemke said:
Eta: I mentioned to my friend that there had been published an interview with the present owner. After we spoke, he found it and then texted me his opinion. I shan't go into detail, but suffice to say that my friend disagrees with some of what the present owner said even more than I do.
Clearly there are differing perceptions, as one man sold it and the other suggests he won't ever part with it. >8^)
ER
Edited by Peloton25 on Sunday 5th March 11:38
PAUL500 said:
A question regarding LM spec engines.
Is it a case that the original road car engine is stripped down and rebuilt to LM spec, or was the complete engine replaced? I imagine if its the latter then the owners retained the original road car engine?
IINM, it was a swap, with either BMW or McLaren retaining the original, as they do with gearboxes.Is it a case that the original road car engine is stripped down and rebuilt to LM spec, or was the complete engine replaced? I imagine if its the latter then the owners retained the original road car engine?
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