Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
Veeayt said:
After reading this thread for years, decided that I should go for the same colour as Flemke's F1, albeit with slightly different stripes and things. 
I remember reading about Flemke's F1 on the pages of Evo, with him saying something like 'brakes are rubbish, but the engine is great' (or something like) and then joining Pistonheads for that reason. But I still cannot elaborate what is, given the number of incredible things and numbers of the F1, makes it so great? The sum of its parts? The engine? The chassis? Don't believe I've seen the answer here, or it's just me being blind. They say, every legend can be described with one sentence. Is there one for old McL?
Fair question.I remember reading about Flemke's F1 on the pages of Evo, with him saying something like 'brakes are rubbish, but the engine is great' (or something like) and then joining Pistonheads for that reason. But I still cannot elaborate what is, given the number of incredible things and numbers of the F1, makes it so great? The sum of its parts? The engine? The chassis? Don't believe I've seen the answer here, or it's just me being blind. They say, every legend can be described with one sentence. Is there one for old McL?
Apart from a handful of historically rarefied one-offs, the world's most valuable cars are 250 GTOs. Their measurable performance was v good but not spectacular by the standards of the day, and is quite ordinary now. They look good, but not great (especially relative to near-contemporaries such as the 250 SWB, 275 GTB, and then we have the Daytona and Miura...)
So what explains the degree to which they are coveted?
Partly it is the small number produced, partly the racing results, partly the overall driving experience that they offer.
All the same apply to the F1, the main difference being that, unlike the 250 GTO, there is nothing similar or closely related to the F1. Numerous 250 GTO replicas have been made, using original Ferrari chassis and engines. There has been no serious attempt to do that with the F1, and in practice it is essentially impossible.
As people have said, the engine is quite something.
The next most special thing about it is the driving position.
Another "special" thing about it is how challenging it is to drive - in contrast to all the "supercars" that have come since. Just as the 250 GTO is (although, unlike the F1, it is not particularly challenging to drive), the F1 is very, very involving to drive. Throttle response, clutch action, gearshift, unassisted brakes, unassisted steering, lack of traction control - the driver must be on his toes every moment. When you get something right, say a gearshift or a bit of trail-braking or putting the power down, it is especially satisfying and enjoyable.
Then we have the packaging of the whole machine. The car is much smaller than a P1, 918, LaF, CGT, Veyron, has more luggage space than any of them, and will carry an additional passenger! How is that for brilliant design?
The cars had loads of technical innovation: the ground-shear bushes, active aero, carbon fibre mono-cell, combined silencer/rear crash structure, remote diagnostics, dihedral doors, transverse transaxle with directly mounted wishbones. There's a lot there.
Then it went out and eclipsed the existing top speed record for a production road car by more than 10%.
Not many were built, they won Le Mans, and even 20+ years later the design still looks fresh.
Of all the road cars built in the last 50 years, nothing really comes close to that set of distinguishing facts, does it?
SpeckledJim said:
SydneyBridge said:
I cannot think of any other car where so much thought and detail has gone into creating the ultimate supercar, the 3 seats, the size, the practicality, the engine etc etc.
In essence there were no restraints or compromises in terms of how to create the car (however much it cost) and this would or could not have happened at any other car company
I think you're overstating things there. Of course there were constraints and compromises. Just not as many as most other cars, and in different places.In essence there were no restraints or compromises in terms of how to create the car (however much it cost) and this would or could not have happened at any other car company
Of course it could have happened at other car companies (Veyron?) - it just didn't.
You mention the Veyron. Although some (def not all) elements of the F1 are of very high build quality, the Veyron has by a margin the best build quality of any car produced since WW2.
SydneyBridge said:
The veyron just does nothing for me, leaves me cold however great its abilities and top speed.
Have you ever considered a Veyron?
I don't know of any Veyron owners on PH.
Would consider only a Super Sport, as the rear window design is beautiful.Have you ever considered a Veyron?
I don't know of any Veyron owners on PH.
Don't know if I could ever be happy with the weight, the 4WD, and the knowledge that I was being shafted whenever I needed a new set of tyres.
In its favour, the craftsmanship, as I say, is really superb.
They're coming out with a Veyron replacement next year, and there will be other models to follow. I would get a Veyron only if I were to believe that it would not be in effect superseded by subsequent models.
flemke said:
They're coming out with a Veyron replacement next year, and there will be other models to follow. I would get a Veyron only if I were to believe that it would not be in effect superseded by subsequent models.
If you did get one, isn't there a danger that you would have a collection of extraordinary cars but limited opportunity to use them all? When I have pondered pouring my ill gotten gains into cars I have compiled lists but then rationed them down to an everyday car, a couple of exotics, a Caterham for basic fun and that's about it as there are only so many opportunities to use them.
flemke said:
They're coming out with a Veyron replacement next year, and there will be other models to follow. I would get a Veyron only if I were to believe that it would not be in effect superseded by subsequent models.
Interesting. The Veyron does nothing for me, and even with the dreamer Euro lottery win I wouldn't have one, but to say it's because it will be superseded... do you believe, think or know the P1 won't be at some stage? The Veyron is nearly 10 yrs old now, in 10 yrs won't there be a better McLaren?flemke said:
Can't say that I have a lot of time for TG, which IMO is the least credible of the British car mags. Clarkson appears to have the mind of a sparrow, and AFAIK neither of his sidekicks (nor he) is actually a driver. I'm not sure that any of the rest of the TG staff are drivers either (whereas, agree or disagree with them, we know that the likes of Sutcliffe, Harris, and Meaden are drivers and thus their opinions on cars carry some weight).
Nonetheless, the article could be worth reading - assuming that we are told the truth about the extent to which the LaFerrari was truly a standard production car, rather than one of the factory's "special" versions available for only the media to experience and report on.
Not a huge fan of the show or the magazine either but hope the article does provide some insight. The journalists involved tested the P1 and the 918 quite extensively earlier in the year so they should be fairly comfortable driving them and also I understand that one of them, Ollie Marriage, has legit driver credentials, on par with Sutcliffe et al.Nonetheless, the article could be worth reading - assuming that we are told the truth about the extent to which the LaFerrari was truly a standard production car, rather than one of the factory's "special" versions available for only the media to experience and report on.
It looks like this is going to just be road test so probably no need for any Ferrari ringer shenanigans. In terms of customer cars hopefully we'll get to see a LaFerrari P1 drag race at vmax 200 next year. Not so sure we'll ever get a reliable track comparison however.
In other news Sport Auto have apparently tested the P1 and the 918 at Hockenheim and will be publishing the results tomorrow.
roystinho said:
flemke said:
They're coming out with a Veyron replacement next year, and there will be other models to follow. I would get a Veyron only if I were to believe that it would not be in effect superseded by subsequent models.
Interesting. The Veyron does nothing for me, and even with the dreamer Euro lottery win I wouldn't have one, but to say it's because it will be superseded... do you believe, think or know the P1 won't be at some stage? The Veyron is nearly 10 yrs old now, in 10 yrs won't there be a better McLaren?The 360 was superseded by the 430, and even the 458 is not fundamentally different, and so could be said to have superseded both of them. One might say that the 458 is a much better version of the 430 or 360, which tends to make either of the earlier cars pale in comparison. In contrast, I don't think that the LaF superseded the Enzo: it seems different in too many ways.
Likewise the P1 did not supersede the F1; the cars are very different.
If the new Chiron ends up seeming to be just a better version of the Veyron, then why get a Veyron (so to speak)? If however it is sufficiently different from the Veyron, then one could have a genuine choice between the two.
I am sure there will be a new McLaren "hypercar". As the company have insisted that it will be quite a few years before that appears, however, that car could prove to be as different from the P1 as the P1 is from the F1. In that case, the two cars would not compete against each other.
greygoose said:
flemke said:
They're coming out with a Veyron replacement next year, and there will be other models to follow. I would get a Veyron only if I were to believe that it would not be in effect superseded by subsequent models.
If you did get one, isn't there a danger that you would have a collection of extraordinary cars but limited opportunity to use them all? When I have pondered pouring my ill gotten gains into cars I have compiled lists but then rationed them down to an everyday car, a couple of exotics, a Caterham for basic fun and that's about it as there are only so many opportunities to use them.I've not said that I would get a V, only that, if I got one, it would be a SS. In the SS they have eliminated two of the worst parts of the V design - the stupid engine-turned aluminium console and the awful aluminium air plenums that sit on the roof of the standard cars.
The reason to get one would be in respect of the superb build quality and engineering that lay behind it. Cars such as the Huayra and K'egg have beautiful elements, especially what is typically visible, but the companies are so small, and have so little background in motorcars, that it is impossible for their cars to be developed to a meaningful degree.
flemke said:
roystinho said:
flemke said:
They're coming out with a Veyron replacement next year, and there will be other models to follow. I would get a Veyron only if I were to believe that it would not be in effect superseded by subsequent models.
Interesting. The Veyron does nothing for me, and even with the dreamer Euro lottery win I wouldn't have one, but to say it's because it will be superseded... do you believe, think or know the P1 won't be at some stage? The Veyron is nearly 10 yrs old now, in 10 yrs won't there be a better McLaren?The 360 was superseded by the 430, and even the 458 is not fundamentally different, and so could be said to have superseded both of them. One might say that the 458 is a much better version of the 430 or 360, which tends to make either of the earlier cars pale in comparison. In contrast, I don't think that the LaF superseded the Enzo: it seems different in too many ways.
Likewise the P1 did not supersede the F1; the cars are very different.
If the new Chiron ends up seeming to be just a better version of the Veyron, then why get a Veyron (so to speak)? If however it is sufficiently different from the Veyron, then one could have a genuine choice between the two.
I am sure there will be a new McLaren "hypercar". As the company have insisted that it will be quite a few years before that appears, however, that car could prove to be as different from the P1 as the P1 is from the F1. In that case, the two cars would not compete against each other.
pork911 said:
Slightly, and now I think of it the engine will be taken out in January for a fuel tank replacement. Not sure if it's worth doing the engine detailing, which strikes me as a bit like putting that tyre dressing on your sidewalls, which looks great until you've driven the car, say, 2 miles.flemke said:
pork911 said:
Slightly, and now I think of it the engine will be taken out in January for a fuel tank replacement. Not sure if it's worth doing the engine detailing, which strikes me as a bit like putting that tyre dressing on your sidewalls, which looks great until you've driven the car, say, 2 miles.E65Ross said:
flemke said:
pork911 said:
Slightly, and now I think of it the engine will be taken out in January for a fuel tank replacement. Not sure if it's worth doing the engine detailing, which strikes me as a bit like putting that tyre dressing on your sidewalls, which looks great until you've driven the car, say, 2 miles.I think we all are so accustomed to the miraculous results that detailers achieve with paint that we tend to expect something similar with other objects of their efforts. Unfortunately, unless the external elements of an engine system are disassembled and cleaned and polished individually, miracles are not possible.
Now I think of it, a few years ago McLaren had their man who does a fantastic job cleaning up F1s detail the engine when it was out of my car. Notwithstanding the very high standard of the man's work, which I had previously witnessed on several occasions, I was surprised at how not-new my engine looked even though he had cleaned and scrubbed it to within an inch of its life.
flemke said:
E65Ross said:
flemke said:
pork911 said:
Slightly, and now I think of it the engine will be taken out in January for a fuel tank replacement. Not sure if it's worth doing the engine detailing, which strikes me as a bit like putting that tyre dressing on your sidewalls, which looks great until you've driven the car, say, 2 miles.I think we all are so accustomed to the miraculous results that detailers achieve with paint that we tend to expect something similar with other objects of their efforts. Unfortunately, unless the external elements of an engine system are disassembled and cleaned and polished individually, miracles are not possible.
Now I think of it, a few years ago McLaren had their man who does a fantastic job cleaning up F1s detail the engine when it was out of my car. Notwithstanding the very high standard of the man's work, which I had previously witnessed on several occasions, I was surprised at how not-new my engine looked even though he had cleaned and scrubbed it to within an inch of its life.
TurboTerrific9 said:
flemke said:
pork911 said:
Slightly, and now I think of it the engine will be taken out in January for a fuel tank replacement. Not sure if it's worth doing the engine detailing, which strikes me as a bit like putting that tyre dressing on your sidewalls, which looks great until you've driven the car, say, 2 miles.As I wrote directly above, the frustrating thing is that, unlike with paint, it is not possible to make a used engine look like new. In fact, for years McLaren had, and may still have, an unused engine (not sure whether it had its internals, but from the outside it was complete) on display on an engine stand, and even it didn't look pristine.
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