Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

Monday 17th November 2014

ajjers said:

The impression I got from the video was that the 918 was the more sorted of the two cars, better engine, better sound and less understeer.

Cheeky of McLaren to demand another go with the Trofeo tyres. Anecdotally, I've heard that the Trofeo's are 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap faster than Cup 2s on a one minute track in a 430 scud. As Flemke says, the only fair comparison would be if both the 918 and the P1 were on the same tyre but I can't see that happening ever. The 918 will getting a track option tyre next year (the same tyre that will be on the gt3rs).

I didn't hear the word "demand" in the video...

Sway

26,271 posts

194 months

Monday 17th November 2014

Guess you missed the (fairly well signposted) conclusion...

He preferred the P1 on track - control integration, playfulness, seating position, etc. He also mentioned that Anglesey isn't exactly the best place to drive a downforce car.

He also decided that he preferred the Porsche on road.

Joe911

2,763 posts

235 months

Monday 17th November 2014

Monty Python said:

ajjers said:

The impression I got from the video was that the 918 was the more sorted of the two cars, better engine, better sound and less understeer.

I didn't get the impression that the 918 had less understeer (maybe I need to listen to it again) - merely that it had less than you might expect for a 4wd car.

isaldiri

18,570 posts

168 months

Monday 17th November 2014

ajjers said:

Anecdotally, I've heard that the Trofeo's are 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap faster than Cup 2s on a one minute track in a 430 scud. As Flemke says, the only fair comparison would be if both the 918 and the P1 were on the same tyre but I can't see that happening ever. The 918 will getting a track option tyre next year (the same tyre that will be on the gt3rs).

Find that very hard to believe trofeo's are 2s a lap faster than cup2s. The current 918 tyres are already cup2s even if they have some eco factors built in for rolling resistance. It would be bizarre for 2 admittedly different spec Cup2s to be as different in laptime as the trofeo to corsa of ~1.5s.

22,865 posts

237 months

Monday 17th November 2014

Crockefeller said:

Flemke, serious question.....

Do you think it would be easier for me to import an NSX-R from Japan or tempt you into selling yours?

Don't think I'd be interested in selling mine. Importing from Japan wouldn't be the easiest thing in the world, but that's likely to be the better bet.

Sorry.

22,865 posts

237 months

Monday 17th November 2014

ajjers said:

trackdemon said:

Well (as if we didn't already know), it would seem the P1 certainly delivers the goods on track, according to our friends on EVO.... And the 918 is rather impressive too. Amusing how they made a point of outlining the difference in approach to the Speciale time: a handful of laps, no engineers, no spare tyres, and not much time to learn how best to extract the time from them.

http://www.evo.co.uk/mclaren/p1/14687/mclaren-p1-v...

The impression I got from the video was that the 918 was the more sorted of the two cars, better engine, better sound and less understeer.

Cheeky of McLaren to demand another go with the Trofeo tyres. Anecdotally, I've heard that the Trofeo's are 1.5 - 2 seconds a lap faster than Cup 2s on a one minute track in a 430 scud. As Flemke says, the only fair comparison would be if both the 918 and the P1 were on the same tyre but I can't see that happening ever. The 918 will getting a track option tyre next year (the same tyre that will be on the gt3rs).

I don't know who suggested 1.5-2.0 sec/lap.
In this test, the differential is 0.4 sec/lap:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Sport-Au...

The two tyres' relative performance is also going to be both circuit- and weather-specific.

What one can safely say is that there is less difference between a Cup 2 and a Trofeo than there is between a Cup 2 and a Corsa, and therefore the Trofeo is the better benchmark in terms of what is possible.
I still say, however, that the fundamental problem is that the Cup 2 is an inappropriate tyre for an all-weather, multi-purpose car such as the 918, and that the main reason Porsche put them as standard on the 918 is that Michelin is the tyre supplier for the 919 prototype and other Porsche factory racing cars.

Joe911

2,763 posts

235 months

Monday 17th November 2014

andyps

7,817 posts

282 months

Monday 17th November 2014

Joe911 said:

Can I just give a warning that when I clicked on the first link here it also opened a web page of a slightly different variety which would fall into the NSFW category.

And then the others are all in German! But thanks for posting.

Joe911

2,763 posts

235 months

Monday 17th November 2014

andyps said:

Can I just give a warning that when I clicked on the first link here it also opened a web page of a slightly different variety which would fall into the NSFW category.

I get the correct image, unfortunately frown

32 posts

125 months

Monday 17th November 2014

flemke said:

I don't know who suggested 1.5-2.0 sec/lap.
In this test, the differential is 0.4 sec/lap:

http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Article/2012-Sport-Au...

The two tyres' relative performance is also going to be both circuit- and weather-specific.

What one can safely say is that there is less difference between a Cup 2 and a Trofeo than there is between a Cup 2 and a Corsa, and therefore the Trofeo is the better benchmark in terms of what is possible.
I still say, however, that the fundamental problem is that the Cup 2 is an inappropriate tyre for an all-weather, multi-purpose car such as the 918, and that the main reason Porsche put them as standard on the 918 is that Michelin is the tyre supplier for the 919 prototype and other Porsche factory racing cars.

The article you've linked is comparing a different Trofeo with a different Cup tyre. The 1.5-2.0 seconds comes from a poster on Ferrari chat who has compared the Trofeo R with the Cup 2s on his Scuderia.

Also I put forward the fact that the rather tubby looking Huracan on Trofeo Rs has been putting up faster track times than the otherwise more track focused Speciale and the GT3 (both on cup 2s) as well as the more powerful and lighter 650s (on corsas).

This is what Jethro has had to say about the subject of the tyres

Jethro Bovingdon: "Glad the 918 v P1 has gone down so well. Re the great tyre debate. I'd say Cup 2/Corsas are pretty much equivalents. Trofeos more extreme."

Jethro Bovingdon: "These Trofeos last about 5 laps - way more extreme than Cups by wear rate, at least."

https://twitter.com/JethroBovingdon/with_replies

Regarding the suitability of the Cup 2s, in the recent Top Gear comparison they said that the 918 was the easiest to drive quickly in the wet conditions they encountered. However in support of your position the P1 was quicker than the 918 on the wet handling course in the Autocar tests.

The most interesting think I read was by Matt (regular poster on here) who owns the Laferrari that was at vmax 200 and in the recent Evo comparison with the Enzo. He said on McLaren Life that HIS Laferrari was faster at Angelsey than both the P1 and 918 on stock corsas and no factory "support". Hopefully he will weigh in with a few more details.

32 posts

125 months

Monday 17th November 2014

Hot off the press from the man himself...

"the LaF surprised everyone with its time. Considering it was a customer car which had already done one track day on its tyres and it was ran at Anglesea on a cold evening it still beat the P1 and 918. hopefully Ferrari will allow the video to be published soon as they have nothing to worry about."

22,865 posts

237 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

ajjers said:

The article you've linked is comparing a different Trofeo with a different Cup tyre. The 1.5-2.0 seconds comes from a poster on Ferrari chat who has compared the Trofeo R with the Cup 2s on his Scuderia.

Also I put forward the fact that the rather tubby looking Huracan on Trofeo Rs has been putting up faster track times than the otherwise more track focused Speciale and the GT3 (both on cup 2s) as well as the more powerful and lighter 650s (on corsas).

This is what Jethro has had to say about the subject of the tyres

Jethro Bovingdon: "Glad the 918 v P1 has gone down so well. Re the great tyre debate. I'd say Cup 2/Corsas are pretty much equivalents. Trofeos more extreme."

Jethro Bovingdon: "These Trofeos last about 5 laps - way more extreme than Cups by wear rate, at least."

https://twitter.com/JethroBovingdon/with_replies

Regarding the suitability of the Cup 2s, in the recent Top Gear comparison they said that the 918 was the easiest to drive quickly in the wet conditions they encountered. However in support of your position the P1 was quicker than the 918 on the wet handling course in the Autocar tests.

The most interesting think I read was by Matt (regular poster on here) who owns the Laferrari that was at vmax 200 and in the recent Evo comparison with the Enzo. He said on McLaren Life that HIS Laferrari was faster at Angelsey than both the P1 and 918 on stock corsas and no factory "support". Hopefully he will weigh in with a few more details.

Seeing as how the differences these various tyres might make is very important to you, perhaps you could supply us with test results or an assessment that is more authoritative than an anecdote provided by an anonymous guy in a Ferrari chat room.

It would not surprise me at all if the LaF were quicker around a circuit than either the 918 and the P1. It weighs less, has more power, and Ferrari know more than enough about aero and about how to generate traction and how to make a car handle.
The shortcomings of the LaF are not speed-related. Rather they derive from its poor build quality and sheer ugliness. Having the owner's name inlaid into the steering ~~wheel~~ rectangle does not really impart a lot of class either.

Cheers.

22,865 posts

237 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

ajjers said:

Hot off the press from the man himself...

"the LaF surprised everyone with its time. Considering it was a customer car which had already done one track day on its tyres and it was ran at Anglesea on a cold evening it still beat the P1 and 918. hopefully Ferrari will allow the video to be published soon as they have nothing to worry about."

As I said above, one would expect that LaFF to be quicker around a circuit. One small point, however: a "cold evening" is not necessarily a slower evening. Colder air is denser air is more horsepower.
A colder track surface will be slower, but the question then is, colder than what? Air temp is not track temp.

Again, I'm not saying that the Laff isn't faster on a circuit - considering all the compromises that Ferrari made in it, one would hope that at least it would be faster around a circuit. What I am saying is that there are so many factors that go into a lap time that going by a single datum is not reliable.

22,865 posts

237 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

coyft said:

ajjers said:

Hot off the press from the man himself...

"the LaF surprised everyone with its time. Considering it was a customer car which had already done one track day on its tyres and it was ran at Anglesea on a cold evening it still beat the P1 and 918. hopefully Ferrari will allow the video to be published soon as they have nothing to worry about."

If it was a customer car, why do they need permission from Ferrari to publish?

Normally the permission is not withheld from the customer, but rather it is withheld from the publication: "Publish an unauthorised test and we won't be speaking with you in future."

pLiDeX

45 posts

135 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

coyft said:

If it was a customer car, why do they need permission from Ferrari to publish?

They don't need it, but they want it because they don't want to upset Ferrari, which is known for not liking journalists testing cars without their supervision. Supervision as in setting up the car to be as fast as possible in the given conditions. Even if the LaF was faster than the P1 and 918, it wasn't as fast as it could had been with the help of Ferrari's engineers.

32 posts

125 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

flemke said:

Seeing as how the differences these various tyres might make is very important to you, perhaps you could supply us with test results or an assessment that is more authoritative than an anecdote provided by an anonymous guy in a Ferrari chat room.

It would not surprise me at all if the LaF were quicker around a circuit than either the 918 and the P1. It weighs less, has more power, and Ferrari know more than enough about aero and about how to generate traction and how to make a car handle.
The shortcomings of the LaF are not speed-related. Rather they derive from its poor build quality and sheer ugliness. Having the owner's name inlaid into the steering ~~wheel~~ rectangle does not really impart a lot of class either.

Cheers.

I accepted that the scud owners results were anecdotal when I first posted them but they are unbiased because they had nothing to do with the 918/P1 discussion. If you really are in doubt about what the Trofeo R can do for a car then take a look at this

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2014/10/2014-chevrolet...

It certainly surprises me that a Laferrari could be faster than a P1 or a 918 on track like Anglesey. I would have thought looking at the design that it generates less downforce and wasn't so sure about the quality of its brakes compared to the other two.

A lot of things about a car are subjective but surely you accept that looks are the most subjective aspect. The Laferrari certainly isn't pretty but in my view that is a hugely overrated virtue in car design. It looks best in colours that soften some of the sharp angles, something like tdf blue or some of the grigio's. You can call it ugly if you want to but as someone who appreciates a bit of brutalist architecture and thinks the e60 was the best bit of mainstream car design in the last two decades I shall beg to differ.

As for build quality I shall defer to your obvious knowledge in this matter. All I will say is that some of the bigger panel gaps clearly just pay homage to its predecessors!

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

Unless all three cars are being compared on the same day, under exactly the same conditions, with exactly the same driver, all the results are null and void. None of these cars is going to be more than a few tenths faster or slower here or there. Watch the Evo videos and you can see driving "mistakes" in both cars that cost laptime.

TBH, arguing "which is faster" is a bit like trying to argue which F1 car/team should be world champion without actually racing them............

zeppelin101

724 posts

192 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

Max_Torque said:

Unless all three cars are being compared on the same day, under exactly the same conditions, with exactly the same driver, all the results are null and void. None of these cars is going to be more than a few tenths faster or slower here or there. Watch the Evo videos and you can see driving "mistakes" in both cars that cost laptime.

TBH, arguing "which is faster" is a bit like trying to argue which F1 car/team should be world champion without actually racing them............

Who cares! The least powerful still has over 800hp, it's going to be a f

king scary ride however you swing it!

32 posts

125 months

Tuesday 18th November 2014

Max_Torque said:

Unless all three cars are being compared on the same day, under exactly the same conditions, with exactly the same driver, all the results are null and void. None of these cars is going to be more than a few tenths faster or slower here or there. Watch the Evo videos and you can see driving "mistakes" in both cars that cost laptime.

TBH, arguing "which is faster" is a bit like trying to argue which F1 car/team should be world champion without actually racing them............

That would be the ideal test but in its absence we make do with what we have. The claim from Mclaren (well, Ron Dennis) and some of their more exuberant owners/fans (obviously not Flemke) is that the P1 would be in a different performance envelope on the track compared to the others, particularly the Laferrari. Given its more obvious complex aero, track only race mode and the fact that Ferrari have a history of over promising and under delivering on power/weight/downforce, I was actually expecting these claims to be borne out in tests. Hence I find these results somewhat interesting.

Personally, I find the subjective side of the comparison more interesting, such as which the most fun to drive, sounds the best etc but after the 458 vs 12c "soul/passion" debate it seems as though people have become more interested in objective data. For example the three Top Gear magazine testers all said last week that the Laferrari was the best but their views have been somewhat ignored because there wasn't any objective data to back it up.

Ultimately, yes it is all a bit pointless but I think that all three cars are so spectacular that they warrant this kind of forensic analysis.

Output Flange

16,798 posts

211 months