Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)

[flemke]

V8FGO said:

I know you made a personal Vmax in the F1, but do you have plans to do the same with the P1.
I suppose as it is not the fastest kid on the block, is it of interest, it guess it may still be interesting how it gets there compared to the F1.
Are you happy with the P1 as I wonder if, given your car history it was something that
was perhaps expected as a purchase IYSWIM ?. I only ask, as I get the impression over the course of this thread that
for the gut tingling expectation and enjoyment the F1 and LCC Rocket have appeared to have given that most of all.

I'm not crazy about the car, no. The electric stuff has no appeal whatever to me and, when you boil it down, the only thing that makes the car "special" is the electric stuff. The driving ergonomics are great, as are the brakes, but otherwise I wouldn't call it a "million pound experience", which it ought to be. The width of the car is a real problem, the complexity of using it and looking after it is a pain, and I don't have enough time in my life to drive it just for the sake of driving it, which given its general impracticality is what one needs to do.

The other reason to have a car of this sort could be investment, but I do not see the P1 values going up all that much. I think the issue will be the Carrera GT problem, where the expensive version, in that case the CGT, looked pretty special, but the company then used much of the special car's design "language" in other of its less exotic, less expensive models, making the original seem like merely an inflated variation of the theme rather than something unique. My hunch is that the forthcoming "baby" Mac will make the P1 seem less rarefied than it now is. Compounding the problem, I expect, will be the P15, the "£350k" car. When it comes out in I think '17, it will probably have as much performance in it as the P1 does now, similar to what happened when the 993 Turbo could effectively match the 959 of a few years previous. Buying technology for its own sake is fine, but you cannot expect it to be the latest and greatest for long, so you need to get your money's worth out of it in the short time before it becomes ordinary.

[E65Ross]

So why did you buy it?

[AlmostUseful]

flemke said:

Don't tell me Bournemouth....

Ha, nothing so glamorous!
Burnham on Sea in Somerset, the summer home of the brummie.

[markbe]

Hi Flemke,

Just musing about the top speed of the P1, is it possible to 'dial out' the huge down force
the 'aero' gives it? [650 kilos did I read]?
In doing so, greatly increasing acceleration above 140mph,and top speed,subject to gearing.

Mark.

[thegreenhell]

flemke said:

I'm not crazy about the car, no. The electric stuff has no appeal whatever to me and, when you boil it down, the only thing that makes the car "special" is the electric stuff. The driving ergonomics are great, as are the brakes, but otherwise I wouldn't call it a "million pound experience", which it ought to be. The width of the car is a real problem, the complexity of using it and looking after it is a pain, and I don't have enough time in my life to drive it just for the sake of driving it, which given its general impracticality is what one needs to do.

The other reason to have a car of this sort could be investment, but I do not see the P1 values going up all that much. I think the issue will be the Carrera GT problem, where the expensive version, in that case the CGT, looked pretty special, but the company then used much of the special car's design "language" in other of its less exotic, less expensive models, making the original seem like merely an inflated variation of the theme rather than something unique. My hunch is that the forthcoming "baby" Mac will make the P1 seem less rarefied than it now is. Compounding the problem, I expect, will be the P15, the "£350k" car. When it comes out in I think '17, it will probably have as much performance in it as the P1 does now, similar to what happened when the 993 Turbo could effectively match the 959 of a few years previous. Buying technology for its own sake is fine, but you cannot expect it to be the latest and greatest for long, so you need to get your money's worth out of it in the short time before it becomes ordinary.

That being so, do you think this could develop into a long-term keeper alongside the F1, or are you already having thoughts of chopping it in while they still command something of a premium over list price?

[E65Ross]

markbe said:

Hi Flemke,

Just musing about the top speed of the P1, is it possible to 'dial out' the huge down force
the 'aero' gives it? [650 kilos did I read]?
In doing so, greatly increasing acceleration above 140mph,and top speed,subject to gearing.

Mark.

Even in race mode, above a certain speed the P1 lowers its wing etc to reduce aero but also to help stop the large forces from breaking the suspension.

[Mjunkie]

Hi flemke,

Great thread as always.

What is the latest status on your f1 brakes? Did you manage to sort the balance issue on the carbon-carbon ones or are you currently using upgraded iron rotors?

Have you ever considered the HDF kit? And how much difference do you think it would make to the handling? and am I right in saying that the HDF kit differs from the LM model in that it doesn't have sideskirts?

Did you ever look into the titanium sports exhaust from factory?

Thanks again for any replies. Defiantly the best thread on the net.

[flemke]

E65Ross said:

So why did you buy it?

- I think it looks good.
- Chris Goodwin persuaded me that the road driving experience would be quite satisfying.
- I wanted of be supportive of my friends at McLaren Cars and get into another project with them.
- In the last few years I've had to deal with a lot of 5hit, and felt like doing something selfish.
- I underestimated the extent to which the negatives would be negative (width, engine note, electronic malarkey).

[flemke]

AlmostUseful said:

flemke said:

Don't tell me Bournemouth....

Ha, nothing so glamorous!
Burnham on Sea in Somerset, the summer home of the brummie.

Ah so. Your forum details said "Dorset", hence my asking.

Fwiw, I think this is the first time ever that I have seen "Bournemouth" and "glamourous" connected in a way that was not sarcastic (unless it really was!)

[flemke]

E65Ross said:

markbe said:

Hi Flemke,

Just musing about the top speed of the P1, is it possible to 'dial out' the huge down force
the 'aero' gives it? [650 kilos did I read]?
In doing so, greatly increasing acceleration above 140mph,and top speed,subject to gearing.

Mark.

Even in race mode, above a certain speed the P1 lowers its wing etc to reduce aero but also to help stop the large forces from breaking the suspension.

Check.
The P1 has got all sorts of air intakes, in the front and also in the sides. Unlike the rear wing, they cannot be trimmed or moderated to reduce drag.
Also, the P1's coefficient of drag (as measured I presume in low-drag configuration) is supposedly only two points above the F1's. If my intervention was correct, the P1's larger frontal area would have the greater influence on the P1's top speed relative to the F1's.

[flemke]

thegreenhell said:

flemke said:

I'm not crazy about the car, no. The electric stuff has no appeal whatever to me and, when you boil it down, the only thing that makes the car "special" is the electric stuff. The driving ergonomics are great, as are the brakes, but otherwise I wouldn't call it a "million pound experience", which it ought to be. The width of the car is a real problem, the complexity of using it and looking after it is a pain, and I don't have enough time in my life to drive it just for the sake of driving it, which given its general impracticality is what one needs to do.

The other reason to have a car of this sort could be investment, but I do not see the P1 values going up all that much. I think the issue will be the Carrera GT problem, where the expensive version, in that case the CGT, looked pretty special, but the company then used much of the special car's design "language" in other of its less exotic, less expensive models, making the original seem like merely an inflated variation of the theme rather than something unique. My hunch is that the forthcoming "baby" Mac will make the P1 seem less rarefied than it now is. Compounding the problem, I expect, will be the P15, the "£350k" car. When it comes out in I think '17, it will probably have as much performance in it as the P1 does now, similar to what happened when the 993 Turbo could effectively match the 959 of a few years previous. Buying technology for its own sake is fine, but you cannot expect it to be the latest and greatest for long, so you need to get your money's worth out of it in the short time before it becomes ordinary.

That being so, do you think this could develop into a long-term keeper alongside the F1, or are you already having thoughts of chopping it in while they still command something of a premium over list price?

I would consider holding onto a car indefinitely only if I loved it, and I don't love this one. Some elements of it are great, but as I said above I expect that within the next couple of years there will be McLaren products that will make the P1 seem less special, such that having a million pounds tied up in it would not make sense.
The F1 was "lucky" in the sense that, during its era, there was nothing else remotely like it, and subsequent eras have not allowed anything like it to go into production. Its future is assured.
We cannot say the same for the P1. I think its future will be akin to the first 20 years of the 959's existence.
There are a couple of things I need to do with the P1, a couple of personal commitments, and then I think I shall kiss it goodbye.

[flemke]

Mjunkie said:

Hi flemke,

Great thread as always.

What is the latest status on your f1 brakes? Did you manage to sort the balance issue on the carbon-carbon ones or are you currently using upgraded iron rotors?

Have you ever considered the HDF kit? And how much difference do you think it would make to the handling? and am I right in saying that the HDF kit differs from the LM model in that it doesn't have sideskirts?

Did you ever look into the titanium sports exhaust from factory?

Thanks again for any replies. Defiantly the best thread on the net.

A couple of months ago the F1 was in for a service, during the service a fuel pump packed up, fixing/replacing it requires getting into bag tank, which requires engine removal, so I decided it would be a good time to replace the bag tank, which the factory will be doing this month. After that we'll have to wait for better weather to get back on the brake issue. I have not heard from the brake guys who were supposed to get back to me 3 months ago, which has not impressed me, but I'm sure we'll hook up again in March/April.
Even if I have to stick with iron discs, the new system is vastly better than the original, so I'd still be a happy camper, just a less happy one than if we could take that 6kg (I think it is) of unsprung rotating mass out of each corner.

I have thought a bit about the HDK, which certainly helps the car's handling at higher speeds, but, although I own some cars with fixed rear wings, it's not a look that I like. I prefer the purity of the standard F1, without try to make it look like a racing car, which it is not.

Wrt the Ti exhaust, turns out that, relative to the (factory) system which I now have on the car, the weight savings would be IRO 2kg, and a 5-figure sum is a lot to pay in order to save 2 kg.

[thegreenhell]

flemke said:

There are a couple of things I need to do with the P1, a couple of personal commitments, and then I think I shall kiss it goodbye.

You've hinted in the past at a possible interest in letting a proper driver have a run at the Nordschleife in your F1. Given McLaren's apparent reluctance to release their official laptime for the P1, have you or would you consider letting someone have a run on that circuit in your P1, with the result made public? Perhaps the same driver could have a run at setting a time in both cars? If such a thing were to happen, even if just hypothetically, do you have a shortlist of drivers to whom you would entrust your cars for such an endeavor?

[V8FGO]

Flemke

Thanks for the insight. One thing I have often wondered is, do any of the cars

raced by Ed Flemke still survive ?. Would you like to have one, although I guess

a little impractical as a daily driver.

[trackdemon]

thegreenhell said:

Given McLaren's apparent reluctance to release their official laptime for the P1...

As I understand it (albeit from unofficial sources), the laptime will never be released because it doesn't exist, in the conventional sense. The P1 doesn't carry enough electrical capacity to make a full lap of the 'ring at record time speeds, losing the majority of the e-boost around 7 miles in. At that point it was up on the 918, and by stitching together optimum sectors the total elapsed time beats the 918. IIRC the time is something in the 6.49-6.51 range. I guess it'll be left in this hinterland of guessing games for us armchair enthusiasts, unless somebody would like to make do it themselves....

[flemke]

thegreenhell said:

flemke said:

There are a couple of things I need to do with the P1, a couple of personal commitments, and then I think I shall kiss it goodbye.

You've hinted in the past at a possible interest in letting a proper driver have a run at the Nordschleife in your F1. Given McLaren's apparent reluctance to release their official laptime for the P1, have you or would you consider letting someone have a run on that circuit in your P1, with the result made public? Perhaps the same driver could have a run at setting a time in both cars? If such a thing were to happen, even if just hypothetically, do you have a shortlist of drivers to whom you would entrust your cars for such an endeavor?

I wouldn't do it with the F1; it's too valuable, and the time would be a disappointment anyhow.

I'd be happy to do it w the P1, and was working toward that very thing this past autumn. We were going to do it w a 918 and a Laffer at the same time, but then the chap who was going to drive them got nervous about the values, and Porsche who were going to supply the 918 backed out as well.
As for drivers, I've not been around the Nordschleife scene in the last few years and don't have a good enough sense of who would be best. (For the 3-way test, it didn't matter because we would have been achieving relative times, not an absolute one.)
Off the top of my head I would always go for Marc Lieb first, but I doubt that Porsche AG would be too keen on the idea. Absent any other semi-intelligent idea of my own, I'd ask Olaf Manthey for his recommendation and go with that.

[flemke]

V8FGO said:

Flemke

Thanks for the insight. One thing I have often wondered is, do any of the cars

raced by Ed Flemke still survive ?. Would you like to have one, although I guess

a little impractical as a daily driver.

A handful do still exist. I have tried to buy the one that I liked most, but that one was not for sale. I'm still on the case.

[flemke]

trackdemon said:

thegreenhell said:

Given McLaren's apparent reluctance to release their official laptime for the P1...

As I understand it (albeit from unofficial sources), the laptime will never be released because it doesn't exist, in the conventional sense. The P1 doesn't carry enough electrical capacity to make a full lap of the 'ring at record time speeds, losing the majority of the e-boost around 7 miles in. At that point it was up on the 918, and by stitching together optimum sectors the total elapsed time beats the 918. IIRC the time is something in the 6.49-6.51 range. I guess it'll be left in this hinterland of guessing games for us armchair enthusiasts, unless somebody would like to make do it themselves....

I was told something different. My understanding, which is unconfirmed, was that McL heard that Porsche, if they were to lose the record to McL, were intent on returning to the circuit with an "improved" 918 which would do a quicker time and that, were that to happen, McL would have felt pressure to do whatever to the P1 to get the record back, and on and on it would go. Not wanting to get into such a cycle, McL thought it wiser, to paraphrase Edward Dirksen, "to withdraw and declare victory"
It is true that the P1 runs out of boost before the lap is over, although so does the 918 (part-way along the Dottinger Hohe, AIUI).
If it is true that an optimal lap-time for the P1 does not exist, there are at least full lap-times in existence; McLaren just won't release them.

[thegreenhell]

In his interview with Chris Harris, Chris Goodwin says quite categorically that the P1 will do a full lap of the Nordschleife with full e-boost, discussing the subject in some depth here:

http://youtu.be/VXRA_34eZrk?t=18m23s

[Peloton25]

trackdemon said:

As I understand it (albeit from unofficial sources), the laptime will never be released because it doesn't exist, in the conventional sense. The P1 doesn't carry enough electrical capacity to make a full lap of the 'ring at record time speeds, losing the majority of the e-boost around 7 miles in. At that point it was up on the 918, and by stitching together optimum sectors the total elapsed time beats the 918. IIRC the time is something in the 6.49-6.51 range. I guess it'll be left in this hinterland of guessing games for us armchair enthusiasts, unless somebody would like to make do it themselves....

That rumor is utterly ridiculous and false.

Here's an owner exercising his P1 at the Ring recently - he shared the completion of his lap demonstrating that the car still has plenty of power in reserve to get to 324 KPH before braking to go under the bridge, which on a clear track Chris Goodwin doesn't even need to do given the downforce the car produces.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa08mXthOaQ

With more than a hint of sarcasm he was asked: "What you mean you didn't run out of batts....?"

And his response: "yeah imagine my surprise... all day long, race mode, no problems.. we did 15 laps in race mode without significant issue.."

>8^)
ER

Edited by Peloton25 on Monday 5th January 07:39