Flemke - Is this your McLaren? (Vol 5)
Discussion
RenesisEvo said:
Thanks for that. I was more amused by their printed reply, which to me smacked of desperation, "yes but we're still right because...". An honest apology/admission would have been much better, but then if everyone corrected the technical errors in EVO, there wouldn't be any pages left for watch adverts.
I've written several letters in the past (including to Octane) regarding the nonsense 1100kg quoted weight of the F40, against which every supercar is unfairly compared/soundbited. The listed handbook weight is actually 1235kg, sans fluid, so around 1300kg wet give or take. Quite a difference. It makes the 675LT's weight quite the achievement, not that it'll be noticed...FWIW, CAR seem to be the only people who'll put their hands up and be challenged. Fair play to them.
People are unfortunately happy to repeat ignorance if it makes for good copy.
alecmets2011 said:
The Ferrari is hideous. Distinctively modern Ferrari looking (those lights and sharp angles), which isn't a good thing.
As we seem to be discussing the recent TG episode, this is my perfect chance to ask opinions of American cars
Flemke, you seem the type that would genuinely dislike (trying to put it nicely) older more brash Corvettes. What is your opinion of the new one?
Also, the Ford Mustang is finally coming to the UK. Any thoughts?
As always, thanks for your time
My impression is that there have been 4 Corvette design themes.As we seem to be discussing the recent TG episode, this is my perfect chance to ask opinions of American cars
Flemke, you seem the type that would genuinely dislike (trying to put it nicely) older more brash Corvettes. What is your opinion of the new one?
Also, the Ford Mustang is finally coming to the UK. Any thoughts?
As always, thanks for your time
The original is cute. Dynamically the car is typical of American cars of the '50s (that is to say, appalling), but the design is v cohesive.
Then we had the first series of Sting Ray, which in the split-window version remains a classic:
GM then traversed the wide gap between the sublime and the ridiculous, and brought us this, which would not be my favourite. In general, its era was the all-time nadir of automotive design, so I suppose one should not be too hard on GM:
The current series I mostly like. I'd get one if it weren't for their egregious interiors, and my preference for RHD for UK. Interesting to see the contrast between the Corvette and F12. I mean, were Ferrari actually trying to see how ugly a car they could design and still shift a couple thousand of them? If so, they appear to have succeeded.
F12:
I have no particular opinion of the new Mustang. As a rule, the American "muscle" cars are too heavy and have too high a seating position to appeal to me.
LongLiveTazio said:
Don't Pratt and Miller's solutions go a long way to righting its wrongs, especially their seats? I loved the C6RS they did, especially as the race car was the best I heard when watching GT racing at Silverstone...
I was not referring to the 'Vette, which I consider to be a sports car, not a "muscle" car. To my mind, the muscle/pony cars were/are Mustang, Camaro, GTO. Charger, Challenger, maybe something else, I don't know. Ali2202 said:
F12 does look bad in Rosso. Same as 550 and 575.
In Grigio or TDF it's much better. Less Shouty.........
Grigio and TDF - colours that disguise the actual shapes of the car!In Grigio or TDF it's much better. Less Shouty.........
That big gouge that runs from the front wing along the entire length of the door is utterly hideous. The way they have brought the lower ends of the splitter up at a sharp angle - essentially an elbow - and even highlighted them by making the centre of the splitter black, is almost as bad.
Ferrari have not figured out that there is a difference between being radical and futuristic and being awkward for the sake of being awkward.
Dynamically the F12 is a real achievement, but its looks will forever ruin it.
flemke said:
Ali2202 said:
F12 does look bad in Rosso. Same as 550 and 575.
In Grigio or TDF it's much better. Less Shouty.........
Grigio and TDF - colours that disguise the actual shapes of the car!In Grigio or TDF it's much better. Less Shouty.........
That big gouge that runs from the front wing along the entire length of the door is utterly hideous. The way they have brought the lower ends of the splitter up at a sharp angle - essentially an elbow - and even highlighted them by making the centre of the splitter black, is almost as bad.
Ferrari have not figured out that there is a difference between being radical and futuristic and being awkward for the sake of being awkward.
Dynamically the F12 is a real achievement, but its looks will forever ruin it.
Seems pretty cool to me to do that.
ManFromDelmonte said:
Flemke said:
Dynamically the F12 is a real achievement, but its looks will forever ruin it.
That does not mean, however, that looks are therefore "subjective" in the sense that, regardless of whether one prefers chocolate to vanilla or vice versa, it could not be said that one flavour is objectively superior to the other.
Further, whether a large number of people, even an overwhelming majority of people, like the looks of a thing does not mean diddly squat. It often seems that about 90% of the population has below-average intelligence; popularity in itself is a highly misleading measure.
I think you are confusing style with skill. The F12 is of a certain style, not that much different from the new Corvette's style. One can like or dislike that style, just as one can like or dislike chocolate. That is the subjective bit.
Within the choice of chocolate, however, some examples are better than others, and the same with cars.
In the last decade there have been loads of road cars with an air aperture directly behind the front wheel arch. Indeed, the new Corvette is one of them. Putting an aperture there does not have to make a car ugly. When you start messing around with silly swirls and swage lines, however, you are asking for trouble.
I mean, a road car really needs that extra 3kg of downforce that in somebody's dreams were generated by those absurd gouges out of the sides of the F12, eh?
Any notion that those gouges might be functional would be very naive.All Ferrari was really doing there was trying to differentiate their car from other manufacturers' cars. An honorable aspiration, but going radical creates risks, and sometimes you won't get it right. The F12 is a prime example of not getting it right.
castex said:
I always preferred Pozzi Blu to TDF. It's a flat colour that makes so shapely.
TDF is a weak blue - too much flake. The darker alternative Blue Le Mans, although still containing some flake, is better.I don't have my samples to hand, but IIRC Pozzi is on the purple side of neutral, making it a cleaner, sharper blue than if it were on the green side.
Flemke.
I know you are fond of both the NSX and the Rocket yet they each split opinion WRT looks. e.g. The NSX rear overhang too long and the Rocket strangely proportioned (side view especially). Do you agree with those observations but forgive the cars because they're great to drive, or do you think they're both good looking motors?
I know you are fond of both the NSX and the Rocket yet they each split opinion WRT looks. e.g. The NSX rear overhang too long and the Rocket strangely proportioned (side view especially). Do you agree with those observations but forgive the cars because they're great to drive, or do you think they're both good looking motors?
As always Flemke, thanks for the replay.
I don't know if you've personally sat in a C7 corvette before, but if you haven't, don't be too quick to judge. Quality is far superior than most other American cars I've been in. Rivaling even some German offerings.
As for the Mustang. I knew it wasn't at all your type. I'm just interested to see how it sells over in the UK. Most seem to like more refined cars. While the Mustang has surely taken a leap forward in the right direction, it's not quite there yet in my opinion.
As for the F12, it's hideous. A disgrace to the Ferrari name, although most modern Ferrari are disgraces as well. At least they're consistent
I don't know if you've personally sat in a C7 corvette before, but if you haven't, don't be too quick to judge. Quality is far superior than most other American cars I've been in. Rivaling even some German offerings.
As for the Mustang. I knew it wasn't at all your type. I'm just interested to see how it sells over in the UK. Most seem to like more refined cars. While the Mustang has surely taken a leap forward in the right direction, it's not quite there yet in my opinion.
As for the F12, it's hideous. A disgrace to the Ferrari name, although most modern Ferrari are disgraces as well. At least they're consistent
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