Is the diesel backlash about to start?
Discussion
I actually sat down last night and worked out how much extra a month in fuel I'm using by switching back to a 3 litre petrol from my old 3 litre turbodiesel. Going by FuelLog on my phone, in the diesel I was averaging about 20k a year, which was costing me £280 ish in fuel. The 3 weeks since I've had the 125i look to have been fairly average - so I'm looking at about 1600 miles by the time the month is out. The cost of petrol for these 1600 miles? £300.
£20 a month for a lovely and smooth, revvy straight 6 without turbos? Bargain if you ask me. Plus add in my insurance is £30 a month less, tax is pretty much identical, and servicing costs are lower, I'm actually saving quite a bit by going to the green pump.
I'm guessing this is why I've been grinning like an idiot since I switched
This may not work for everyone but I have found it quite a result
£20 a month for a lovely and smooth, revvy straight 6 without turbos? Bargain if you ask me. Plus add in my insurance is £30 a month less, tax is pretty much identical, and servicing costs are lower, I'm actually saving quite a bit by going to the green pump.
I'm guessing this is why I've been grinning like an idiot since I switched
This may not work for everyone but I have found it quite a result gizlaroc said:
The only reason to buy a modern diesel is if you prefer it.
For 90% of car buyers the diesel is not cheaper.
Not 100% true, for company car drivers the BIK with the low CO2 makes anything other than a diesel almost a non-starter. For 90% of car buyers the diesel is not cheaper.
For personal use people are suckered by the mpg and VED. They go for the better mpg and lower VED yet happily pay many thousands extra. TBH the same effect can be seen with the people who spend many thousand pounds to buy a new car that is "more efficient". The daily (fuel) costs get seen while the longer term costs get lost and ignored.
ORD said:
I once said on PH (and got slated for it) that little turbo petrols are very similar to little turbo diesels.
I meant it as an insult to small turbo petrol engines - the flat power and torque (both peaking low in the rev range) bore me s
tless. A small petrol engine should be peaky, otherwise you may as well ride the torque wave in a diesel and get about 15% better fuel efficiency while doing so. There's no point revving the nuts off a small turbo petrol because it doesn't generate any more power - you are just burning more fuel and making more noise (which is not worth listening to in a turbo 4 banger).
Give me a 2 litre NA tuned for reasonably peaky power delivery and I'd take it over any turbo engine (petrol or diesel) for a hatchback.
Agree really, I stick small capacity turbo petrols in the same bucket as diesels. Both sound awful. One of the main pro's for the chap who has a fiesta was for the sound - doing it wrong lol.I meant it as an insult to small turbo petrol engines - the flat power and torque (both peaking low in the rev range) bore me s
tless. A small petrol engine should be peaky, otherwise you may as well ride the torque wave in a diesel and get about 15% better fuel efficiency while doing so. There's no point revving the nuts off a small turbo petrol because it doesn't generate any more power - you are just burning more fuel and making more noise (which is not worth listening to in a turbo 4 banger).Give me a 2 litre NA tuned for reasonably peaky power delivery and I'd take it over any turbo engine (petrol or diesel) for a hatchback.
DervHead said:
longbow said:
I have a Cerb, an Evo IX, and two little diesel commuting cars for the daily grind. Having the two diesels allows me to fund the other two as there is no way I would pay for the fuel or put the commuting miles on Cerb/Evo. I run both of the diesels on rape seed oil which I get from the local chinese supermarket, fresh, for 75p per litre (£15 for 20l drum). The cars have been running fine this way for over a year, with no modifications at all, and have racked up 25k miles between them. They are both Saxo diesels on Y plates are can average a genuine 50-55mpg if you drive sensibly. If you multiply this by the percentage saving as oppose to pump diesel it works out approx 90 - 99mpg. I love my diesels..... but they don't run on diesel 
And the CO2 emmissions are much lower as well. And yes, they aren't 'quick' but in commuting traffic on the M4 and Bristol ring road there is no scope to press on anyway.
Why I don't see (or smell) more diesels running SVO or bio, I just don't know.
I ran various cars (mostly 1.9 XUD IDI TD engines with Bosch IPs) on SVO and BD. I covered almost a quarter of a million miles on the stuff over the years and as you say it's great. However since the scrappage scheme and the rise of WVO/SVO/BD usage it's harder to find a suitable engine these days. Plus once industry 'cottoned on' to the use of veggie power prices suddenly went from about 25ppl in the supermarkets to £1.50pl which obviously changes things for most people! And the CO2 emmissions are much lower as well. And yes, they aren't 'quick' but in commuting traffic on the M4 and Bristol ring road there is no scope to press on anyway. Why I don't see (or smell) more diesels running SVO or bio, I just don't know.
Fastdruid said:
Not 100% true, for company car drivers the BIK with the low CO2 makes anything other than a diesel almost a non-starter.
Some of the latest petrol engines are quite good on BIK, for instance the 1.4 TSI with 150 bhp fitted to some VAG branded cars works out at £15 to £20 per month less in BIK than the same car in 2.0 150 BHP diesel guise.I've been road testing hybrids this week, with a view to offering them as an alternative to an Octavia hatch or estate. They're actually surprisingly good, better than I was expecting on the motorway, although a bit noisier than the Skodas, as road noise is more intrusive. Annual savings in excess of £400 in BIK can't be ignored either, considering fuel costs will be about the same. That'll pay for the tax and insurance on my V8
Edited by Super Slo Mo on Friday 15th August 18:28
gizlaroc said:
It is all bks about diesels being cheaper.
Audi give the same residual after 3 years and 30k miles for the A3 and Q3 in 2.0tdi and 1.4tfsi form, but the diesel costs £1800 more at least.
This meant the A3 was £250 a month (with £2k down) on the 1.4tfsi and £309 a month for the 2.0tdi.
This makes the petrol far cheaper to own.
So in your subjective opinion, because this example worked for you, ALL petrol cars are worth the same as diesel cars?ks about diesels being cheaper. Audi give the same residual after 3 years and 30k miles for the A3 and Q3 in 2.0tdi and 1.4tfsi form, but the diesel costs £1800 more at least.
This meant the A3 was £250 a month (with £2k down) on the 1.4tfsi and £309 a month for the 2.0tdi.
This makes the petrol far cheaper to own.
daemon said:
So in your subjective opinion, because this example worked for you, ALL petrol cars are worth the same as diesel cars?
So far just about all the quotes I have had on the latest petrols have worked in the petrols favour price wise, or not been detrimental to decision. As I said, when it comes to buying a car now, not 10 years ago, not 5 years ago, not 2 years ago, but today, I can't see any real reason to go diesel apart from the fact you prefer it.
Financially it is starting to make less and less sense.
I had a quote for the 525d vs 528i sport touring and even that was £42 a month less for the 528i.
Now, £42 a month on a car that is costing £450 a month is not huge I agree.
However, the difference in fuel is only £55 a month doing 12k miles a year, and that is saying the diesel gets 50% more MPG wise, which is probably being over generous to the diesel.
Of course all petrol cars are not worth the same as diesels, but going forward with a new order the sums are now getting very, very tight.
Monkeylegend said:
It's noticeable how all these debates tend to be dominated by those who hate diesel trying to justify why they think petrol is better, whilst us diesel lovers sit back and watch in amusement.
Keep up the good work
Not at all, my last few cars have been diesels, they have been bought as they did save money. Keep up the good work
I think it is far more a case of diesel owners not wanting to know how little money they are really saving by going with the poorer engine.
Diesel has always been a compromise based on price, if petrol was 50p a litre this wouldn't even be a discussion.
The only reason I drive a diesel is because nobody buys new petrol examples so I had little choice. A shame - I love the car and the engine is absolutely excellent, but if they were equally available it would have been a petrol one no contest. I don't really understand all these people who claim diesel is 'better' than petrol for anything other than fuel consumption. I must have one of the best possible diesel engines you can get and it's still not as good as a petrol six.
gizlaroc said:
Diesel has always been a compromise based on price, if petrol was 50p a litre this wouldn't even be a discussion.
I do agree though that things are set to change over the next few years.
heebeegeetee said:
Likewise with diesel. If diesel was 50p a litre things would be skewed towards diesel even more than it is.
His point is that if we lived in a world of free fuel we'd all pick a petrol.Instead what we do is pick diesel's for economy reasons and then argue on the internet about how it's totally not about saving money but it's definitely about 'all the torque' or the 'better power delivery' or whatever other self justification people come out with as to why they bought a diesel instead of the almost always better petrol alternatives (Which in some cases no longer even exist, sadly). Most of what people like about the power characteristics of a diesel is because its turbocharged not because it's diesel.
I find the power delivery style of my 530d excellent - it's quick, it's responsive, the midrange performance is exceptional and paired with the ZF 8 Speed box it drives absolutely wonderfully.
But guess what - so does a 535i.
Fox- said:
Instead what we do is pick diesel's for economy reasons and then argue on the internet about how it's totally not about saving money
But thats really not how it happens is it?What happens is, people pick diesels predominantly because they believe they will save money.
When a diesel v petrol debate comes up, some petrol advocates go "you'd have to be a complete moron to buy a diesel. You cant call yourself a car fanatic if you drive a diesel. Diesels are only for lorries and tractors. Diseasels. When i drive a diesel all i can smell is diesel. They're so f
king noisy i have to run away when i hear one. Theres no power band. They're stty to drive. They belch out black smoke. Children in china are dying and kittens are getting poisoned because YOU drive a diesel. DAG DAG DAG DAG. Rant Rant Rant. Diesel drivers are bell ends".So the bloke with the diesel then goes, "actually its quite nice to drive, and there are merits to it - torque, lower down power, etc, etc and it suits my needs perfectly".
THAT is THEN translated as diesel owners try to justify their purchases based on driving characteristics not economy.
When chosing a new car i decide what my priorities are, what my needs of it are, and find the best car to meet those needs. If it happens to be a diesel, then fine. If it happens to be a petrol, then fine. If it happens to be electric or hybrid, then fine.
Its about the overall package for me, not how its powered.
daemon said:
When chosing a new car i decide what my priorities are, what my needs of it are, and find the best car to meet those needs. If it happens to be a diesel, then fine. If it happens to be a petrol, then fine. If it happens to be electric or hybrid, then fine.
Its about the overall package for me, not how its powered.
Which is what I always say. I always end with saying 'buy a diesel because you prefer it'. Its about the overall package for me, not how its powered.
Don't try and justify it with running costs, it is bulls
t for 90% of people. gizlaroc said:
Monkeylegend said:
It's noticeable how all these debates tend to be dominated by those who hate diesel trying to justify why they think petrol is better, whilst us diesel lovers sit back and watch in amusement.
Keep up the good work
Not at all, my last few cars have been diesels, they have been bought as they did save money. Keep up the good work
I think it is far more a case of diesel owners not wanting to know how little money they are really saving by going with the poorer engine.
Diesel has always been a compromise based on price, if petrol was 50p a litre this wouldn't even be a discussion.
gizlaroc said:
daemon said:
When chosing a new car i decide what my priorities are, what my needs of it are, and find the best car to meet those needs. If it happens to be a diesel, then fine. If it happens to be a petrol, then fine. If it happens to be electric or hybrid, then fine.
Its about the overall package for me, not how its powered.
Which is what I always say. I always end with saying 'buy a diesel because you prefer it'. Its about the overall package for me, not how its powered.
Don't try and justify it with running costs, it is bulls
t for 90% of people. Monkeylegend said:
Cost is not an issue, I genuinely prefer diesel, hard as it might be to believe.
I do find that hard to believe. You sure you prefer diesel? Or maybe you prefer forced induction?
250bhp turbo petrol vs a 250bhp turbo diesel? You prefer the sound of the diesel and the shorter rev range? That is really the only differences between those two.
I will have to believe you do prefer it if you say you do, but I find that strange.
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