Making the switch from running new cars to older cars
Discussion
Upgradeitis.
We borrow money at rates we can't afford to buy things we don't need to impress people we don't like.
Do you want a car for your growing family or a status symbol? Seems to me you need to answer that question first. When you do, there's plenty of very good 8-10 year old cars out there for £10k. Spend the rest on a holiday or 5 or paying off a chunk of mortgage (if you have one). My only tip would be 10+ year old cars can sometimes be tricky to European Breakdown cover for, but if you just saved 20k that shouldn't trouble you.
We borrow money at rates we can't afford to buy things we don't need to impress people we don't like.
Do you want a car for your growing family or a status symbol? Seems to me you need to answer that question first. When you do, there's plenty of very good 8-10 year old cars out there for £10k. Spend the rest on a holiday or 5 or paying off a chunk of mortgage (if you have one). My only tip would be 10+ year old cars can sometimes be tricky to European Breakdown cover for, but if you just saved 20k that shouldn't trouble you.
Edited by Mr Taxpayer on Tuesday 19th August 12:20
Never bought new and never will, as you have mentioned if you go older you can get something MUCH more interesting.
Who wants a £40k 320d which will cost you £15k in depreciation in three years when you could spend £25k on a 6/7 year old M3 and spend the £15k in running it (and some left over).
Very basic example which doesn’t take into account the cost of maintenance on the 320d but you get the point.
Look at it as what you are saving in depreciation you are using as the service / maintenance fund and subsequent repair fund.
Of the 6 or 7 cars I've owned (newest 6 year old) the only issue I've had is the bottom end going on a 15 year old MR2, all I'd say is buy private from an enthusiast / forum or specialist garage.
Forums are the best as you will pick up everything about the cars, all the know faults and niggles as well as an absolute greybeard fountain of knowledge.
Who wants a £40k 320d which will cost you £15k in depreciation in three years when you could spend £25k on a 6/7 year old M3 and spend the £15k in running it (and some left over).
Very basic example which doesn’t take into account the cost of maintenance on the 320d but you get the point.
Look at it as what you are saving in depreciation you are using as the service / maintenance fund and subsequent repair fund.
Of the 6 or 7 cars I've owned (newest 6 year old) the only issue I've had is the bottom end going on a 15 year old MR2, all I'd say is buy private from an enthusiast / forum or specialist garage.
Forums are the best as you will pick up everything about the cars, all the know faults and niggles as well as an absolute greybeard fountain of knowledge.
I bought several new cars in the period 1998 to 2003. The last one was the most expensive at a tad over £40k. I still have it and in terms of depreciation alone it's cost me about 75p per mile!
Compare that to the 15 year old Alfa156 I'd had for 4 years which cost me £1100 and was sold for £1000 just recently. Of course there were repairs (although the car was wholly reliable and never let me down) the total cost of ownership (all bills, VED, petrol, insurance etc)worked out at 55p per mile.
It's unlikely I'll ever buy a new car again. The secret is to find those hidden gems - I tend to buy privately only, choose cars with a low number of previous owners and ones which have some maintenance history and are considered by the mass market as slightly less desirable (mainly from a mpg point of view). As a result my cars are all petrol and tend to have larger engines but unless you're racking up 15k+ miles per year the costs are not ruinous.
I don't want to tempt fate but to date none of the old cars I've bought in the past 10+ years ever caused major pain in the wallet. Conversely the one I bought new in 2003 has produced a couple of surprises!
Compare that to the 15 year old Alfa156 I'd had for 4 years which cost me £1100 and was sold for £1000 just recently. Of course there were repairs (although the car was wholly reliable and never let me down) the total cost of ownership (all bills, VED, petrol, insurance etc)worked out at 55p per mile.
It's unlikely I'll ever buy a new car again. The secret is to find those hidden gems - I tend to buy privately only, choose cars with a low number of previous owners and ones which have some maintenance history and are considered by the mass market as slightly less desirable (mainly from a mpg point of view). As a result my cars are all petrol and tend to have larger engines but unless you're racking up 15k+ miles per year the costs are not ruinous.
I don't want to tempt fate but to date none of the old cars I've bought in the past 10+ years ever caused major pain in the wallet. Conversely the one I bought new in 2003 has produced a couple of surprises!
lufbramatt said:
I've never really got this. I have no intention of spending £2k/year on my E39 (was a £40k car in 2003).
I'll probably do the coolant system next year, about £400 worth of bits, but then it's sorted for a good while. This year it's had a new brake caliper (£65) and might need new discs and pads on the front in a few months time (£150). Can't see it needing much more on top of that apart from oil+filter changes, but that's not a huge amount.
Agree on the post about proactive maintenance. Stuff like finding water leaks before the floor pans go rusty, keeping the crap cleaned out of the arch liners etc. All basic stuff that just takes a little bit of time but protects your investment.
That's fine if you intend to use it up over a few years and then scrap it. Perfectly reasonable thing to do. But your car, if that's really all it does need right now, almost certainly is n that good condition because of someone else having spent that sort of money on it in the past. A full suspension rebuild / replacement on an E39 is over £2k by itself, and in the E39 world at the ages they now are, it's a case of those that have had them and those that need them. A really good wheel refurb and a set of quality tyres is about £1000. I'll probably do the coolant system next year, about £400 worth of bits, but then it's sorted for a good while. This year it's had a new brake caliper (£65) and might need new discs and pads on the front in a few months time (£150). Can't see it needing much more on top of that apart from oil+filter changes, but that's not a huge amount.
Agree on the post about proactive maintenance. Stuff like finding water leaks before the floor pans go rusty, keeping the crap cleaned out of the arch liners etc. All basic stuff that just takes a little bit of time but protects your investment.
My point of view is that I intend to keep these cars on a completely open-ended basis and that means ongoing rolling restoration work. Having got them initially up to a good level it is not as simple as £2k a year, every year - some years it will be £1k, some years it might be £3K or £4K. But my intention is in 10 years time to still have a car that looks as good, and drives as well, as it did when it was a well cared for three or four year old.
So it's a case of thinking about when you are going to have a clutch / flywheel replacement or an auto transmission rebuild. When you are going to have the head off and do a top-end overhaul including a VANOS rebuild. When you are going to replace the breather system. When will it need a complete exhaust and a cat replacement. When will the accumulated tiny scratches and stonechips on the windscreen become sufficiently annoying in a low autumn sun that you want a new screen. It all adds up.
Over the years My wife has always had the new car while I have had the going to work horse.
This has allowed me to select all sorts of yesterday's hero's.
They have been required to enable commuting between the UK and Germany and Switzerland.
For the last 16 tears or so, my dailies have been various TVR's and an FTO thrown in.
Main reliability problem with the TVR's has been the regular flat batteries when left in airport car parks for more than two weeks.
As I've got older and my latest Tuscan has become more valuable,
18 months ago I bought an MB CLS 320 CDI.
It's a 2008 model with the. 30k miles. Still drives like a new car but cost 75% less than its show room price and, in my opinion looks fantastic.
The main requirement is that they must be serviced regularly and properly.
This has allowed me to select all sorts of yesterday's hero's.
They have been required to enable commuting between the UK and Germany and Switzerland.
For the last 16 tears or so, my dailies have been various TVR's and an FTO thrown in.
Main reliability problem with the TVR's has been the regular flat batteries when left in airport car parks for more than two weeks.
As I've got older and my latest Tuscan has become more valuable,
18 months ago I bought an MB CLS 320 CDI.It's a 2008 model with the. 30k miles. Still drives like a new car but cost 75% less than its show room price and, in my opinion looks fantastic.
The main requirement is that they must be serviced regularly and properly.
Mr Taxpayer said:
Upgradeitis.
We borrow money at rates we can't afford to buy things we don't need to impress people we don't like.
Do you want a car for your growing family or a status symbol? Seems to me you need to answer that question first. When you do, there's plenty of very good 8-10 year old cars out there for £10k. Spend the rest on a holiday or 5 or paying off a chunk of mortgage (if you have one). My only tip would be 10+ year old cars can sometimes be tricky to European Breakdown cover for, but if you just saved 20k that shouldn't trouble you.
I'm not worried about impressing people or having a status symbol, I buy cars that I think I'll enjoy driving, the 135 in my history kinda backs that up. I don't really enjoy the golf, which is a shame. The other factors are cost, safety and reliability. I don't spend what I can't afford but as I'm PAYE in a field where unemployment is not an issue finance makes reasonable sense IMO. An older car would be bought with a loan with a repair fund sat in a cash ISA, a newer car would be PCP'd in all likelihood. We borrow money at rates we can't afford to buy things we don't need to impress people we don't like.
Do you want a car for your growing family or a status symbol? Seems to me you need to answer that question first. When you do, there's plenty of very good 8-10 year old cars out there for £10k. Spend the rest on a holiday or 5 or paying off a chunk of mortgage (if you have one). My only tip would be 10+ year old cars can sometimes be tricky to European Breakdown cover for, but if you just saved 20k that shouldn't trouble you.
Edited by Mr Taxpayer on Tuesday 19th August 12:20
I'd rather spend more than 10k on my car, everyone is different in this, I agree there are good cars for <10k. The mortgage is manageable, we do take holidays, I like cars and I'm happy to spend what I do. Life is too short to spend every penny on bringing the mortgage down.
But thats digressing from the point.
The other factor I'm aware of is technological progress. New cars are getting faster and safer, a B7 RS4 is a similar speed to the Golf R for example and possibly less safe in an accident (debatable I agree).
Lowtimer said:
lufbramatt said:
I've never really got this. I have no intention of spending £2k/year on my E39 (was a £40k car in 2003).
I'll probably do the coolant system next year, about £400 worth of bits, but then it's sorted for a good while. This year it's had a new brake caliper (£65) and might need new discs and pads on the front in a few months time (£150). Can't see it needing much more on top of that apart from oil+filter changes, but that's not a huge amount.
Agree on the post about proactive maintenance. Stuff like finding water leaks before the floor pans go rusty, keeping the crap cleaned out of the arch liners etc. All basic stuff that just takes a little bit of time but protects your investment.
That's fine if you intend to use it up over a few years and then scrap it. Perfectly reasonable thing to do. But your car, if that's really all it does need right now, almost certainly is n that good condition because of someone else having spent that sort of money on it in the past. A full suspension rebuild / replacement on an E39 is over £2k by itself, and in the E39 world at the ages they now are, it's a case of those that have had them and those that need them. A really good wheel refurb and a set of quality tyres is about £1000. I'll probably do the coolant system next year, about £400 worth of bits, but then it's sorted for a good while. This year it's had a new brake caliper (£65) and might need new discs and pads on the front in a few months time (£150). Can't see it needing much more on top of that apart from oil+filter changes, but that's not a huge amount.
Agree on the post about proactive maintenance. Stuff like finding water leaks before the floor pans go rusty, keeping the crap cleaned out of the arch liners etc. All basic stuff that just takes a little bit of time but protects your investment.
My point of view is that I intend to keep these cars on a completely open-ended basis and that means ongoing rolling restoration work. Having got them initially up to a good level it is not as simple as £2k a year, every year - some years it will be £1k, some years it might be £3K or £4K. But my intention is in 10 years time to still have a car that looks as good, and drives as well, as it did when it was a well cared for three or four year old.
So it's a case of thinking about when you are going to have a clutch / flywheel replacement or an auto transmission rebuild. When you are going to have the head off and do a top-end overhaul including a VANOS rebuild. When you are going to replace the breather system. When will it need a complete exhaust and a cat replacement. When will the accumulated tiny scratches and stonechips on the windscreen become sufficiently annoying in a low autumn sun that you want a new screen. It all adds up.
Breathers and some of the suspension already been done.Don't get me wrong, I'm going to look after it, not run it into the ground. I've only ever had one MOT advisory in 10 years of driving (slight blow on a newly-fitted exhaust box) and never had a car fail, due to being vigilant with the condition of suspension bits etc.
On my E39 the VANOS and DISA are DIY-able, suspension doesn't look especially hard either. The transmission is a gamble, but it's only done 67k so should be fine for a good while yet. My view is that I've spent hours reading up on how stuff works, got a garage full of tools, that's what enables me to run a car that would otherwise be beyond my reach if bought new but is perfectly fine to run once someone else has taken the depreciation hit.
I bought 2 very tired TR7s for $1200. Spent $3000 restoring one from the 2.
Drove it for 12 years, & 70,000 Kilometers spending nothing on it but servicing. Capital cost per year $350, with no depreciation, & perhaps a little appreciation.
Decided I liked it so much I had air conditioning fitted, a bare metal paint job & rebuilt the engine with mostly new parts. Cost $12,000, almost 3 years ago.
There was no depreciation so total capital cost of motoring for 15 years, $16,000 or $1066 a year, & I have a fully restored car to drive for the next 10 years.
In the same time my wife has had 2 new Mazdas, & a new Ford, which have also cost nothing in repairs, but loosing $12000, $14,000 & 18,000 respectively on the cars at time of sale. Total loss $44,000, or $2033 a year, & she has just spent $24,500 on yet another Mazda. All up capital cost $68,000. Hell she could have bought a small house for that.
So there you are, drive a new car & feel rich, or a TR7 & actually be rich.
Drove it for 12 years, & 70,000 Kilometers spending nothing on it but servicing. Capital cost per year $350, with no depreciation, & perhaps a little appreciation.
Decided I liked it so much I had air conditioning fitted, a bare metal paint job & rebuilt the engine with mostly new parts. Cost $12,000, almost 3 years ago.
There was no depreciation so total capital cost of motoring for 15 years, $16,000 or $1066 a year, & I have a fully restored car to drive for the next 10 years.
In the same time my wife has had 2 new Mazdas, & a new Ford, which have also cost nothing in repairs, but loosing $12000, $14,000 & 18,000 respectively on the cars at time of sale. Total loss $44,000, or $2033 a year, & she has just spent $24,500 on yet another Mazda. All up capital cost $68,000. Hell she could have bought a small house for that.
So there you are, drive a new car & feel rich, or a TR7 & actually be rich.
Ozzie Osmond said:
You'll need to allow 5% of the new cost of the car each year for maintenance to be on the safe side. In other words if the car cost £50,000 when it was new, allow a maintenance budget of £2,500 p.a.
Rubbish. My V70 I assume would have been circa 30k new in 2004 so £1500 a yeah to maintain. This year I've covered 30k miles and it has had:3 oil/filter changes = £120
1 major service = £80
2 lower wishbones = £186
Engine top mount = £50
2 michelin tyres =135 Inc fitting
Wiper blades = £3
Various bulbs £20
2 handbrake cables and a rear brake service kit = £75
MOT £40
There maybe a few other bits I can't remember but under £700 including a few jobs I won't have to do again. All jobs well within even a novice DIYer capability.
Cost of new vs old cars is something most people completely fail to understand. I get endless comments about how much I must spend on fuel/maintenance running my old Impreza, usually by people at work with a nearly new white-good costing them hundreds of £ per month in deprecation alone.
My Dad also has this ridiculous mindset, he is considering a new car this year and seems happy at the prospect of shelling out £30k+ cash but it MUST be diesel and do 40mpg or more, to do around 8k miles per year. A new/nearly new 330d appeals to him hugely, but a £10k E46 M3? Forget it! I have tried...
So long as you spend money on maintenance and pre-empt issues where possible, there's no reason why a 10+ year old car can't be a perfectly reliable and fun daily driver IMO. You're also not in bondage to some finance/leasing company, which is a nice feeling!
My Dad also has this ridiculous mindset, he is considering a new car this year and seems happy at the prospect of shelling out £30k+ cash but it MUST be diesel and do 40mpg or more, to do around 8k miles per year. A new/nearly new 330d appeals to him hugely, but a £10k E46 M3? Forget it! I have tried...
So long as you spend money on maintenance and pre-empt issues where possible, there's no reason why a 10+ year old car can't be a perfectly reliable and fun daily driver IMO. You're also not in bondage to some finance/leasing company, which is a nice feeling!
HonestIago said:
Cost of new vs old cars is something most people completely fail to understand. I get endless comments about how much I must spend on fuel/maintenance running my old Impreza, usually by people at work with a nearly new white-good costing them hundreds of £ per month in deprecation alone.
My Dad also has this ridiculous mindset, he is considering a new car this year and seems happy at the prospect of shelling out £30k+ cash but it MUST be diesel and do 40mpg or more, to do around 8k miles per year. A new/nearly new 330d appeals to him hugely, but a £10k E46 M3? Forget it! I have tried...
So long as you spend money on maintenance and pre-empt issues where possible, there's no reason why a 10+ year old car can't be a perfectly reliable and fun daily driver IMO. You're also not in bondage to some finance/leasing company, which is a nice feeling!
Thing is, and probably what a lot of people cannot grasp is, how much fun do you have from you car, rather than driving an identikit new white 14 plate?My Dad also has this ridiculous mindset, he is considering a new car this year and seems happy at the prospect of shelling out £30k+ cash but it MUST be diesel and do 40mpg or more, to do around 8k miles per year. A new/nearly new 330d appeals to him hugely, but a £10k E46 M3? Forget it! I have tried...
So long as you spend money on maintenance and pre-empt issues where possible, there's no reason why a 10+ year old car can't be a perfectly reliable and fun daily driver IMO. You're also not in bondage to some finance/leasing company, which is a nice feeling!
chris watton said:
HonestIago said:
Cost of new vs old cars is something most people completely fail to understand. I get endless comments about how much I must spend on fuel/maintenance running my old Impreza, usually by people at work with a nearly new white-good costing them hundreds of £ per month in deprecation alone.
My Dad also has this ridiculous mindset, he is considering a new car this year and seems happy at the prospect of shelling out £30k+ cash but it MUST be diesel and do 40mpg or more, to do around 8k miles per year. A new/nearly new 330d appeals to him hugely, but a £10k E46 M3? Forget it! I have tried...
So long as you spend money on maintenance and pre-empt issues where possible, there's no reason why a 10+ year old car can't be a perfectly reliable and fun daily driver IMO. You're also not in bondage to some finance/leasing company, which is a nice feeling!
Thing is, and probably what a lot of people cannot grasp is, how much fun do you have from you car, rather than driving an identikit new white 14 plate?My Dad also has this ridiculous mindset, he is considering a new car this year and seems happy at the prospect of shelling out £30k+ cash but it MUST be diesel and do 40mpg or more, to do around 8k miles per year. A new/nearly new 330d appeals to him hugely, but a £10k E46 M3? Forget it! I have tried...
So long as you spend money on maintenance and pre-empt issues where possible, there's no reason why a 10+ year old car can't be a perfectly reliable and fun daily driver IMO. You're also not in bondage to some finance/leasing company, which is a nice feeling!
I sometimes pity people who aren't petrolheads! Anything made in the last 10 years is very modern, and have the same sorts of problems (and, on the flipside, have the same sorts of reliability!)
What you save in buying a good used car you will spend on maintainence. Maintainence being the important word, since big services (e.g. cam belt) are very important and must be done to ensure the continuing reliability of a currently reliable vehicle.
In reality, you will spend less over time on a used car if you run it for 100,000 miles than you would on a new car that you run for 100,000 miles
I have a 15 year old motorcycle with relavitly high mileage, and I carry out all sorts of maintainence people dont usually do (e.g. shock linkage clean and grease) because they change their bikes before it ever needs doing.
In many ways my bike is just as good as new, if not better (although to look at you might not think it!). it's worth f
k all though, but costs me very little to maintain it and to run it. It's too good to get rid of.
What you save in buying a good used car you will spend on maintainence. Maintainence being the important word, since big services (e.g. cam belt) are very important and must be done to ensure the continuing reliability of a currently reliable vehicle.
In reality, you will spend less over time on a used car if you run it for 100,000 miles than you would on a new car that you run for 100,000 miles
I have a 15 year old motorcycle with relavitly high mileage, and I carry out all sorts of maintainence people dont usually do (e.g. shock linkage clean and grease) because they change their bikes before it ever needs doing.
In many ways my bike is just as good as new, if not better (although to look at you might not think it!). it's worth f
k all though, but costs me very little to maintain it and to run it. It's too good to get rid of. Edited by thatdude on Tuesday 19th August 15:36
Mr Taxpayer said:
When you do, there's plenty of very good 8-10 year old cars out there for £10k.
I've been thinking about this. I don't think there is a car out there that would fulfil my wants and needs for £10k actually.On paper the new Golf R is what I'm after. Circa 5s to 60, fun to drive, 4/5 doors, able to fit one of these in the back, reasonably safe and 4wd a bonus but if 2wd must not be a deathtrap in snow.
Is there a 10k car that does this?
Hasbeen said:
I bought 2 very tired TR7s for $1200...
In the same time my wife has had..... All up capital cost $68,000. Hell she could have bought a small house for that.
So there you are, drive a new car & feel rich, or a TR7 & actually be rich.
Its sums like these that make me question what I'm playing at buying new cars. That said, I suspect you are an extreme example!In the same time my wife has had..... All up capital cost $68,000. Hell she could have bought a small house for that.
So there you are, drive a new car & feel rich, or a TR7 & actually be rich.
The other option (which I subscribe to) is buy something new-ish and cheap to buy and run, just to get you to work and back. Then pick up something a lot older that you really fancy for high days & holidays, and hopefully you shouldn't lose too much on either
Then, as others have already mentioned, use the depreciation you've "saved" as a contingency fund
Bad point: It'll bore the hell out of you on your commute
Good point: You won't be as bothered when parking in supermarkets, kerbing the wheels, etc
Then, as others have already mentioned, use the depreciation you've "saved" as a contingency fund
Bad point: It'll bore the hell out of you on your commute
Good point: You won't be as bothered when parking in supermarkets, kerbing the wheels, etc
lufbramatt said:
stuff
Yes, if you have the time, inclination and facilities to DIY all that, then long run it will not cost you anything like 5% of the new cost a year: it's parts-only rather than parts and labour.My numbers, and I'm sure Ozzie's too, are based on a competent indy putting in the labour, which is probably more the sort of painless, non time absorbing experience that someone who's always run new cars is likely to want.
Funny how these types of threads always lead to an avalanche of people posting about how their >x< year old >insert barge/sports car/other< has cost them buttons to run over the last >x< years and that everyone should do it rather than suffer the indignity of depreciation.
However, there must be (and are) loads of people who have bought a nail. Something that was cheap and supposedly reliable but was in fact a money pit.
Come on - you're out there somewhere. Let's not hide the potential lottery of older-car buying.
I would also say that you need to be handy with the spanners and/or willing to put up with certain idiosyncrasies on an older car. Read: bits not working or bits creaking/rattling.
However, there must be (and are) loads of people who have bought a nail. Something that was cheap and supposedly reliable but was in fact a money pit.
Come on - you're out there somewhere. Let's not hide the potential lottery of older-car buying.
I would also say that you need to be handy with the spanners and/or willing to put up with certain idiosyncrasies on an older car. Read: bits not working or bits creaking/rattling.
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