Diesels About To Get Expensive????
Discussion
SiT said:
Hmmm that's interesting, read many many threads on diesel v petrol and thought the consensus was 12k plus is diesel territory which I am probably on the brink of.
At the minute I am looking for a stop gap commuter case, using some of my money I was looking at a Honda Civic Type S GT - these are available in 1.8i VTEC guise and the well used 2.2cdti engine. I can get a lower mileage 1.8i VTEC with identical spec than the cdti counterpart.
I drive 20 miles to work and 20 miles home each day, 6 days a week - the car I was using was a 2006 BMW 318ci Sport convertible which according to obc was returning 36mpg. As the chance has arisen through unfortunate circumstances to change it I would like something that betters the BMW this saving me more money which goes towards second car.
The diesel Civic puts out some pretty impressive figures all round but overall ownership could possibly be more than the 1.8??
Si
It pains me to say, but having driven a 1.8VTEC & 2.2CDTI back to back on the same day in a Civic, the Diesel was a far nicer drive. The petrol felt lethargic & never really happened, even at the top end. The Honda diesel had linear power all the way through and felt like a nice big petrol engine.At the minute I am looking for a stop gap commuter case, using some of my money I was looking at a Honda Civic Type S GT - these are available in 1.8i VTEC guise and the well used 2.2cdti engine. I can get a lower mileage 1.8i VTEC with identical spec than the cdti counterpart.
I drive 20 miles to work and 20 miles home each day, 6 days a week - the car I was using was a 2006 BMW 318ci Sport convertible which according to obc was returning 36mpg. As the chance has arisen through unfortunate circumstances to change it I would like something that betters the BMW this saving me more money which goes towards second car.
The diesel Civic puts out some pretty impressive figures all round but overall ownership could possibly be more than the 1.8??
Si
Yes it pains me as I've been a fan of Honda motors since having a VTEC CRX in 1994!
The other factor to consider is depreciation, until the buying public realise that petrol cars are no dearer to run for most people, then diesel cars will still hold their value - good as a buyer of an older petrol but not when you're looking for a 3 year old car to run for 3 years or so - makes the petrol/diesel choice quite difficult.
Dracoro said:
daemon said:
There is a very simple rule that people should always have been following with regards to the choice between diesel and petrol :-
If you're not doing the miles, dont buy a diesel.
Whilst for many people that may be true to an extent, it's not quite as simple as that though, there are other factors.If you're not doing the miles, dont buy a diesel.
For example, my wife has a Honda CRV. Putting aside the fact that she does the miles that kinda makes diesel the "sensible" choice anyway, the engine suits that type of car more than a petrol one. My wife, like many, is not one to red-line cars (unlike myself
) so having much of the power lower down/mid-range means she can make good progress. Simply put, it suits the car and the driver.Yes, a diesel gives you lazy easily accessible power, but the younger the car the more likely it is to have a dual mass flywheel, diesel particulate filter, EGR recirculation, etc, etc, and be susceptable to problems with all of those, plus injectors, pump and turbos. Any of these could hit a £1,000 bill, and just because you've had one, wont mean you wont hit another the following month.
Take the Vauxhall 1.9CDTI. Lovely engine - except the DPF needs a long run at say 2,500 RPM to clean itself and the car is geared to 2,200 RPM at 70mph, so its prone to clogging the DPF. This can clog up the EGR valve, which all puts extra pressure on the turbo and it eventually blows. Oh and its got a DMF which will need replaced every 60-80K miles.
Just not worth it - unless you're doing big miles OR dont mind paying out on big bills randomly.
daemon said:
Dracoro said:
daemon said:
There is a very simple rule that people should always have been following with regards to the choice between diesel and petrol :-
If you're not doing the miles, dont buy a diesel.
Whilst for many people that may be true to an extent, it's not quite as simple as that though, there are other factors.If you're not doing the miles, dont buy a diesel.
For example, my wife has a Honda CRV. Putting aside the fact that she does the miles that kinda makes diesel the "sensible" choice anyway, the engine suits that type of car more than a petrol one. My wife, like many, is not one to red-line cars (unlike myself
) so having much of the power lower down/mid-range means she can make good progress. Simply put, it suits the car and the driver.Yes, a diesel gives you lazy easily accessible power, but the younger the car the more likely it is to have a dual mass flywheel, diesel particulate filter, EGR recirculation, etc, etc, and be susceptable to problems with all of those, plus injectors, pump and turbos. Any of these could hit a £1,000 bill, and just because you've had one, wont mean you wont hit another the following month.
Take the Vauxhall 1.9CDTI. Lovely engine - except the DPF needs a long run at say 2,500 RPM to clean itself and the car is geared to 2,200 RPM at 70mph, so its prone to clogging the DPF. This can clog up the EGR valve, which all puts extra pressure on the turbo and it eventually blows. Oh and its got a DMF which will need replaced every 60-80K miles.
Just not worth it - unless you're doing big miles OR dont mind paying out on big bills randomly.
When we replace the CRV (not for a while) we will then consider all appropriate cars ont he market (diesel/petrol/hybrid) and decide accordingly. Certainly not going to have some silly "never buy any diesel/hybrid/petrol" train of thought. Just buy what is best for our requirements and what we like (like pretty much everyone does).
Euro 6 aftertreatment for cars will bump up retail prices aswell as Adblue filling at or between services. The concept of running a diesel WILL get more expensive aside from any fuel price changes. Its not going to be a massive jump but easier to hide the cost the larger/more premium the car is.
The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
Pan Pan said:
The problem with hybrids is that they must also carry a heavy, space consuming set of batteries, which leaves relatively little space for a fuel tank, passengers and their luggage, so even if they do achieve good MPG, (and bear in mind you must use fuel to lug around the batteries and extra electric motors)
What about that cast iron engine block with cast manifold, low efficiency 12V alternator, much larger lead acid battery, turbocharger and intercooler all stuffed under the bonnet on a diesel equivalent? Atleast the hybrid bits do something for you when slowing down!The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
Edited by JonnyVTEC on Wednesday 20th August 15:33
JonnyVTEC said:
Pan Pan said:
The problem with hybrids is that they must also carry a heavy, space consuming set of batteries, which leaves relatively little space for a fuel tank, passengers and their luggage, so even if they do achieve good MPG, (and bear in mind you must use fuel to lug around the batteries and extra electric motors)
What about that cast iron engine block with cast manifold, low efficiency 12V alternator, much larger lead acid battery, turbocharger and intercooler all stuffed under the bonnet on a diesel equivalent?The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
jimbop1 said:
unpc said:
It's not going to happen overnight but it's coming. Diesels will get more expensive to meet Euro 6 no doubt. Unless you drive mega miles I wouldn't bother. Hateful things anyway.
Why do you have a Range Rover (guessing it's diesel) and a D3 then?JonnyVTEC said:
What about that cast iron engine block with cast manifold, low efficiency 12V alternator, much larger lead acid battery, turbocharger and intercooler all stuffed under the bonnet on a diesel equivalent? Atleast the hybrid bits do something for you when slowing down!
The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
Most diesels these days have alloy blocks don't they? My Volvo D5 certainly did, haven't had a good look at the Skoda's 2.0 engine.The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
irocfan said:
jimbop1 said:
unpc said:
It's not going to happen overnight but it's coming. Diesels will get more expensive to meet Euro 6 no doubt. Unless you drive mega miles I wouldn't bother. Hateful things anyway.
Why do you have a Range Rover (guessing it's diesel) and a D3 then?Pan Pan said:
The problem with hybrids is that they must also carry a heavy, space consuming set of batteries, which leaves relatively little space for a fuel tank, passengers and their luggage, so even if they do achieve good MPG, (and bear in mind you must use fuel to lug around the batteries and extra electric motors) you still end up having to go into fuel stations to fill up every few hundred miles. Which to me is often a real pain in the backside at the best of times.
But as others have posted if you drive average mileage, and generally in cities, then a petrol / petrol hybrid could be the best option. It seems to depend on A What kind of driving you do, and B whether or not you can have another possibly more impractical car, such as a sports car for high days and holidays.
That's not necessarily true any more, the Auris for instance, which I'm considering for my next company car as the BIK benefits make a big difference, has a decent sized boot, especially in estate guise. It's a reasonable alternative to a Golf, which is probably its nearest equivalent in the VW range.But as others have posted if you drive average mileage, and generally in cities, then a petrol / petrol hybrid could be the best option. It seems to depend on A What kind of driving you do, and B whether or not you can have another possibly more impractical car, such as a sports car for high days and holidays.
Downside to the Auris is the 45 litre tank, although my Superb only has a 55 or so litre capacity too, so range is still somewhat limited.
For me, at 20,000 per year, a hybrid is a genuine option.
a hateful car, but my wife has a citroen xsara picasso 1.6 d. it will not do less than 54 mpg. on a proper run its nudging 66/68 mpg.
it does nothing but go to work, shops, nursery. never gets into 5th gear. just short horrible traffic journeys.
argue all you want all day about miles, petrol being the way forward, but pound for pound no petrol will match it for economy.
Bare in mind its carrying children, a pram and all the other rubbish that mums fill their car with.
its not even a new one, its a 2006 model with 80 k on it.
it does nothing but go to work, shops, nursery. never gets into 5th gear. just short horrible traffic journeys.
argue all you want all day about miles, petrol being the way forward, but pound for pound no petrol will match it for economy.
Bare in mind its carrying children, a pram and all the other rubbish that mums fill their car with.
its not even a new one, its a 2006 model with 80 k on it.
Super Slo Mo said:
JonnyVTEC said:
What about that cast iron engine block with cast manifold, low efficiency 12V alternator, much larger lead acid battery, turbocharger and intercooler all stuffed under the bonnet on a diesel equivalent? Atleast the hybrid bits do something for you when slowing down!
The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
Most diesels these days have alloy blocks don't they? My Volvo D5 certainly did, haven't had a good look at the Skoda's 2.0 engine.The passat does 1000mile on a tank because it has a big tank!
Yes, Passat Bluemotions have big tanks, but these can give 1000 mile plus range, and of course they get lighter as the fuel is used, the batteries in hybrids don't, and are the equivalent of a boat anchor for the life of the car and they can take up a lot of space. I was looking at a cutaway for a VW hybrid, and the batteries were stuffed everywhere in it, leaving hardly any space for passengers or luggage, and with a small fuel tank, frequent trips to fuel stations will be required, even if they do have good mpg figures, There is also the question regarding the longevity of the batteries, and the cost of their replacement in older vehicles which must also be factored in.
It's not as simple as just asking how many miles you do.
I currently have an e39 530d (auto). It was a toss up between that and a 530i. The advantages of a petrol is that it sounds nice, super smooth and a bit more powerful. However IMO barge-like cars are in many ways more suited to a diesel. Advantages are that I visit a petrol station less often, and I'm less likely to drive fast! Also a consideration for me was the cost of holidaying in Europe, where diesel is cheaper! I don't do mega miles.
I currently have an e39 530d (auto). It was a toss up between that and a 530i. The advantages of a petrol is that it sounds nice, super smooth and a bit more powerful. However IMO barge-like cars are in many ways more suited to a diesel. Advantages are that I visit a petrol station less often, and I'm less likely to drive fast! Also a consideration for me was the cost of holidaying in Europe, where diesel is cheaper! I don't do mega miles.
jimbop1 said:
I was referring to his last comment. He describes diesels as 'hateful things' but seems to own two.
That's right I own 2. First off is the wife's Evoque which was bought used and a petrol wasn't available in the spec she wanted. Secondly the D3 was bought as I'm doing big miles now and the the XKR was slowly killing my wallet. Don't get me wrong, the D3 is a good car. I just hate the engine. This was my first diesel for my daily driver and probably my last. Pan Pan said:
They complain about noise, smell, and weight issues, which just do not exist in a modern diesel engine car.
I don't know if it's a modern engine design but the diesel 2013 Mondeo I had for a few months was very unpleasant to listen to with the window down; window closed was a different matter, so that's down to NVH dampening rather than quiet engines.Pan Pan said:
It could be that those who don't seem to like diesel engines on here have not driven modern alloy block diesel engine cars. They complain about noise, smell, and weight issues, which just do not exist in a modern diesel engine car.
Yes, Passat Bluemotions have big tanks, but these can give 1000 mile plus range, and of course they get lighter as the fuel is used, the batteries in hybrids don't, and are the equivalent of a boat anchor for the life of the car and they can take up a lot of space. I was looking at a cutaway for a VW hybrid, and the batteries were stuffed everywhere in it, leaving hardly any space for passengers or luggage, and with a small fuel tank, frequent trips to fuel stations will be required, even if they do have good mpg figures, There is also the question regarding the longevity of the batteries, and the cost of their replacement in older vehicles which must also be factored in.
Interestingly, well, vaguely interestingly, my Superb is quieter once under way than the CT200h, which has appalling road noise, and the Auris. Yes, Passat Bluemotions have big tanks, but these can give 1000 mile plus range, and of course they get lighter as the fuel is used, the batteries in hybrids don't, and are the equivalent of a boat anchor for the life of the car and they can take up a lot of space. I was looking at a cutaway for a VW hybrid, and the batteries were stuffed everywhere in it, leaving hardly any space for passengers or luggage, and with a small fuel tank, frequent trips to fuel stations will be required, even if they do have good mpg figures, There is also the question regarding the longevity of the batteries, and the cost of their replacement in older vehicles which must also be factored in.
At very low speed obviously my diesel engine is noticeable, but at higher speeds, it disappears into the general noise of the car. High revs in the diesel tend to sound of turbo whistle and valve gear, much like any 4 cylinder 16 valve engine, although I can't argue that it's an entertaining noise, but neither are most normal 4 pot petrols.
Tank size on anything Golf based appears to be very small relative to the size of the car, the Superb is huge, but has a small tank. Is your Passat the newer one based on the Golf platform, or the one that shares a platform with the A4?
For the hybrids, the longevity of the batteries isn't an issue on a company lease, and I have to say, they're been impressively long lived in most Toyotas so far, although the oldest isn't much over 10 years, so it's still early days I think. Can't argue with the weight issue though, although it didn't seem noticeable in the two I had on demo last week.
Fastdruid said:
CraigyMc said:
My 320d ED will do 1050 miles on a 63l tank.
I'm sure it will but a 320i is cheaper until you're doing >18k/year.On your point about the 320i versus 320d ED, that depends entirely on the deal your company has struck with the leasing company, assuming we're talking company cars.
In tax terms, the 320i is 147g/CO2/km (Band F), the 320d ED is 109g/CO2/km (band B).
Because the diesel gets bumped upward in tax brackets by 3% they are more comparable in tax numbers than it sounds, but the 320d saves about £35 a month in tax for a 40% tax bracket person.
It is also actually cheaper to lease, by about £10 a month despite costing more than £2000 more in terms of list price.
I guess depreciation of each comes into play. In other words, it's cheaper as a company car if you're doing 0 miles per year, never mind having to put in 18,000.
In any case, the 320i wasn't available when I bought my car (nor was the MB C250d BlueTec 109g CO2/km model, which is what I'd likely buy if given the choice today).
Dracoro said:
Many of your points have some validity to an extent, however all utterly irrelevant in the case of my wife's car. There was no petrol engine CRV with the "surge" (and the new petrol ones with turbos may also suffer higher running costs) when we purchased. there is no DPF in our CRV. Of course it could get the other problems that you mentioned (so could a petrol car get its' own set of issues). We minimise that chance by buying from a decent manufacturer (Honda) and not something less reliable (Vauxhall etc.).
When we replace the CRV (not for a while) we will then consider all appropriate cars ont he market (diesel/petrol/hybrid) and decide accordingly. Certainly not going to have some silly "never buy any diesel/hybrid/petrol" train of thought. Just buy what is best for our requirements and what we like (like pretty much everyone does).
You seem to have taken this as some personal attack on you and your wife because at some point in the past you bought a diesel?When we replace the CRV (not for a while) we will then consider all appropriate cars ont he market (diesel/petrol/hybrid) and decide accordingly. Certainly not going to have some silly "never buy any diesel/hybrid/petrol" train of thought. Just buy what is best for our requirements and what we like (like pretty much everyone does).
You will notice i said "if you are buying", not if you have bought
I also said the younger the car you buy, the more likely it is to have things on it that are likely to go bang in an expensive way. And the younger you buy the more likely there is to be a decent petrol alternative.
If you want to buy a diesel AND do low miles - go right ahead. Not my concern, but the reality is with modern diesels you really need to be doing high miles to keep the thing from clogging up AND to have a big enough cost offset that if you get a big bill you've already saved ££££'s.
Now unfortunately that paragraph of advice has come through a whole load of personal experience in the motor trade, and expense.
Too much hassle and too much risk. All IMHO of course.
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