RE: Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0: Spotted

[braddo]

robertpaulson said:

Dagnut said:

Yeah I agree, it will never go down in value unless it's crashed. Enjoy.

who knows, everyone said the same thing about top end Bordeaux in 2011, 2009/2010 greatest vintages ever, chinese would buy everything to the moon, could never go down, can't make more of it yadda yadda yadda. Lafite Rothschild 2005 now down over 50% from its peak, still falling and about to make lifetime lows.

The wine comparison would be more valid if widespread legislation was being introduced that fundamentally changed how wine is made and meant that new stuff will never taste the same as the older stuff. If that were the case, the vintages you mention would perhaps have maintained their value better?

I'm not saying there isn't a classic/collector car bubble of some sort, but it is a reality that there is a finite (dwindling, in fact) supply of said cars but an increasing demand for them across the globe.

[Davey S2]

monthefish said:

I think we've all seen what can happen, even to experienced drivers, that possibly (who knows?) wouldn't have happened in a more benign car. Anyway, we've all got our own opinions. Here's an owners opinion:

456mgt said:

I took the CGT on the South circuit and didn’t enjoy it very much. The CGT felt hard edged with not enough of a gap between grip and the complete lack of it. Don’t get me wrong, both are well mannered, it’s just that the F50 was the one that felt the more forgiving. It felt faster too.

But how hard a car is to drive has no effect on it's desirability.

You can find examples on Wrecked Exotics of all types of supercars that have been crashed spectacularly.

The fact that Mr Bean totalled his F1 doesn't make me want one any less.

[monthefish]

Davey S2 said:

monthefish said:

I think we've all seen what can happen, even to experienced drivers, that possibly (who knows?) wouldn't have happened in a more benign car. Anyway, we've all got our own opinions. Here's an owners opinion:

456mgt said:

I took the CGT on the South circuit and didn’t enjoy it very much. The CGT felt hard edged with not enough of a gap between grip and the complete lack of it. Don’t get me wrong, both are well mannered, it’s just that the F50 was the one that felt the more forgiving. It felt faster too.

But how hard a car is to drive has no effect on it's desirability.

You can find examples on Wrecked Exotics of all types of supercars that have been crashed spectacularly.

The fact that Mr Bean totalled his F1 doesn't make me want one any less.

Yes, I'd agree with all of that (although many actually see 'difficult to drive' as a plus point)

[isaldiri]

monthefish said:

With respect, a couple of hundred miles in a friends car is unlikely to tell you much about the cars on limit handling.

I think we've all seen what can happen, even to experienced drivers, that possibly (who knows?) wouldn't have happened in a more benign car. Anyway, we've all got our own opinions.

WCZ's comment was "4.0 won't literally kill you like the cgt" which implied it was likely to do so at 'fast' road speed and not just at the limit on track. My comment was at least based on having driven the car (admittedly not anywhere on the limit and not on track) and not on hearsay/rumours.

Any car is likely to bite quite hard at the limit when it has the lateral grip of the CGT as you would be going pretty quickly when it happens...

edit: and I'll raise you a quote from another owner

wtdoom said:

An rs is a great bit of kit but not comparable to a Cgt In my experience , everything is on a higher level in the gt .
The concentration , skill and effort level required to fully exploit the Carrera gt are higher than those in an rs but still too is the performance level and more importantly the fun , interaction , feel good factor , Noise , and driving experience . The Carrera gt is the most underrated car of the modern era , in time it will be regarded as a classic . The last of its kind .

The main problem with the Carrera gt is it does not excell at posing and doesn't flatter those unwilling to put in the time and effort to gain enough skill to exploit this car . It is a car for the true driver and can bite the clumsy , unfortunately those wealthy enough to afford the gt are not always skilled enough to enjoy it .

Other than that , put in the effort and the car rewards like very very few others and is more reliable than the comparable machines .

Edited by isaldiri on Friday 22 August 11:34

[robertpaulson]

braddo said:

The wine comparison would be more valid if widespread legislation was being introduced that fundamentally changed how wine is made and meant that new stuff will never taste the same as the older stuff. If that were the case, the vintages you mention would perhaps have maintained their value better?

I'm not saying there isn't a classic/collector car bubble of some sort, but it is a reality that there is a finite (dwindling, in fact) supply of said cars but an increasing demand for them across the globe.

I agree to a point, but its not impossible to build light fantastic sounding manual coupes with great steering feel. The only reason they died out was the percieved (or real) lack of demand and poor sales..

just a shame the 'investor' market goes after the same thing as the enthusiast market without any particular rhyme or reason - i.e. why is a 993 turbo multiples higher than a 348, despite losing out in driving performance in every review at the time. yes its the last aircooled turbo, but the 348 is the last analogue enzo supervised v8 ferrari. bizarre world, pity they didn't all pick on auto cabs as the hot ticket.

[Davey S2]

Unregistered CGT here for £550K.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

Interior is not my cup of tea but easily fixed I suppose.

[hondansx]

Mermaid said:

Good post, except that the 4.0 RS will always command a huge premium for reasons that are nothing to do with performance - last Mezger, manual, 7.2 RS.

The last E30 M3 2.5 and the 190 E Merc 2.5 also benefit from that phenomenon. They are not that much better to drive than the 2.3 versions. There are more examples.

Exactly. People aren't quite getting it. As i've mentioned, this particularly 911 is rarer than a Carrera GT.

People seem to poo-poo it but the 911 is the definitive Porsche. The 4.0 will always be expensive and values won't nose dive, IMO.

[cidered77]

Bunk said:

Anyone here remember or traded through the dot com bubble? In the face of evidence of the madness, a way would always be found to explain why something was not a bubble, and actually good value. Same with property over here in Ireland a few years ago. Then, when something collapses, its always so obvious with hindsight.

One of the features of a bubble, is that people are prepared to buy things at high prices they never would have considered when they were cheaper. Another is they buy stuff not because they really want it or know what it is, but because its gone up. Or because they think its going to be higher in another six months. Another is that people fall over themselves to project even more fantastical prices within a specified time period. Anyone remember "Dow 40,000"?

The car market is experiencing all of these at present.

I own a CGT and have owned a 997.1 RS, Driven a 3.8RS and passengered in a 4.0. As good as it is, its a 997 GT3RS at the end of the day, aftermarket tuning can get a 3.6 or 3.8 to a very close if not higher level of performance and feel. I have heard some owners say they actually preferred their 3.8/3.6.

The CGT is on a different level in terms of construction, materials, feel, uniqueness. There is no base model you can modify to create one or emulate one. In the long run the market will recognise that.

do you find the running costs for the CGT as generally scary as some of those mentioned earlier in the thread? I do buy the argument that generally eulogized low volume cars that aren't strateopherically expensive to maintain offer a certain attraction vs. the hypercars that do - although of course £289k seems insane for GT3 4.0.

Take the 959 - prices very low relative to the F40, but such a special car. Look into one as an investment though and you're soon put off by tales of parts needing to be literally machined from scratch such is the difficulty of keeping one running.. whereas the F40 seems expensive, but least "predictable" to run.

[Killer1]

Slippydiff said:

SidewaysSi said:

Soov535 said:

J4CKO said:

So, if I had what 120/140 grand ? and could buy a new one (991) and keep it for a few years, say 5, what are the chances of getting that money back plus profit ?

Is it a no brainer or is the Porsche market so fickle that because it cant be had with a manual it will go down in value ?

How are 996 GT3's doing ?

Ninety grand.



http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

He bought that for 40k ish a couple of years ago - Everyone is trying it on! And the mileage isn't that low either...

I think an interest rate hike will affect these values much like property...

He paid closer to £50k actually (it's my old car), but you're right, £90k

I'm currently having some friendly banter with a GT3 owning mate as to this car's true worth. I recently sold a well modified, nicely specced example in gloss black, with 59k miles for just south of £50K.
The yellow car is in very original and good condition, the colour is sought after, but only for a few.
I see it at £55k, my mate says no more than £50k.

4.0 RS V's CGT ? Got to be the CGT. I'm not a massive fan personally, but the build spec and quality is truly superb. The engine is an all time great. At some point the market will wake up to them and they'll only head North.

CGT definitely.

I have a 2004 black 996 Turbo manual with an x50 pack with 17,000 miles on the clock. Worth under 40k. Not expecting an increase like your GT3 but expecting it to start going up. Any thoughts?

[Rawwr]

Killer1 said:

I have a 2004 black 996 Turbo manual with an x50 pack with 17,000 miles on the clock. Worth under 40k. Not expecting an increase like your GT3 but expecting it to start going up. Any thoughts?

Unlikely. The only 996 I can think of that'll rocket a bit is the GT3RS.

[cheese]

Itsallicanafford said:

..when are E46 M3 CSL values going to get really moving? With the latest M3 still slower around the ring, surely they might make take a big leap soon?

Considering the similarities to the GT3's they do seem truly exceptional value. It might be that BMW isn't as prestigious a brand as Porsche and few can compete with Porsche on race pedigree but still they are pretty much half the price now and offer practically the same track experience and are more practical for the road with four seats.

[Mermaid]

cheese said:

Itsallicanafford said:

..when are E46 M3 CSL values going to get really moving? With the latest M3 still slower around the ring, surely they might make take a big leap soon?

Considering the similarities to the GT3's they do seem truly exceptional value. It might be that BMW isn't as prestigious a brand as Porsche and few can compete with Porsche on race pedigree but still they are pretty much half the price now and offer practically the same track experience and are more practical for the road with four seats.

CSL's are the 996.2 GT3 equivalent - same era, about same power (360/381). The GT3 was about £20k more expensive new.

Will the CSL ever be compared to the 6RS? Don't think so. The 911 is more emotive.

[456mgt]

456mgt said:

I took the CGT on the South circuit and didn’t enjoy it very much. The CGT felt hard edged with not enough of a gap between grip and the complete lack of it. Don’t get me wrong, both are well mannered, it’s just that the F50 was the one that felt the more forgiving. It felt faster too.

As this was my quote, I feel qualified to comment on it. Short answer is that this 'spikiness' is modulated by the supersport tyres. And in any case I went back to Silverstone for a 918 day and had a laugh out on track in the GT. On the sport tyres, it is actually telling you where the limit of grip is, it's just far more subtle than in other cars. Once you've tuned in, it's a blast.

I agree 100% with Baf, it's an absolutely sensational machine and rewards like no other.

[Fr0dders]

mikEsprit said:

I've commented/complained in SOTW on this before (and surely will again, haha), but I find it curious and annoying that the model year of vehicles being talked about is not placed in articles. I assume this is a British thing because in the USA, it is something that would be stated in the very first sentence about any vehicle being discussed, i.e. 'This 2005 Ford...' or '98 Volvo S80'.

As to this car, at least it has the graphics on the side so I could go home and look it up if I saw one in the wild, but 911's don't do anything for me since they are so commonplace. My money would go with the CGT easily if I had the choice.

Correct

However I fear its the other way round - the obsession with "years" is a uniquely american thing. People do not really refer to a 1986 BMW M3 - they talk about the e30 M3. Likewise with Porsches, people refer to the 996 Turbo or the 997 Turbo, not the 2009 911 Turbo.

This applies for Britain, Europe, and with Asian too. Its the Nissan R33 Skyline GTR, not the 1994 Nissan Skyline GTR.

The american car industry also has a peculiar obsession with adding a year on the production years too. Ford is already making the 2015 mustang for delivery in September for example - despite the fact they are being made in 2014 lol.

[thegreenhell]

cidered77 said:

Take the 959 - prices very low relative to the F40, but such a special car. Look into one as an investment though and you're soon put off by tales of parts needing to be literally machined from scratch such is the difficulty of keeping one running.. whereas the F40 seems expensive, but least "predictable" to run.

959s seem to be more expensive to buy than F40s now. They've very quietly rocketed in value recently.

http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1988-porsche-959-...

[cidered77]

thegreenhell said:

cidered77 said:

Take the 959 - prices very low relative to the F40, but such a special car. Look into one as an investment though and you're soon put off by tales of parts needing to be literally machined from scratch such is the difficulty of keeping one running.. whereas the F40 seems expensive, but least "predictable" to run.

959s seem to be more expensive to buy than F40s now. They've very quietly rocketed in value recently.

http://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1988-porsche-959-...

wow - "rocket" is the word, they were £180-250k last time i checked!!?

Now I don't believe in nuffin no more - and I'm now kicking myself I just p/x'd my sister's 1.3 Yaris - it must be worth $15.1m in a couple of years

[The Pits]

The late 80's boom was very Ferrari led. The record £197k paid for a Ferrari 328 shows there's some way to go yet but also a warning for those buying at the top. 30 years later and even at the height of another boom - that guy would still be looking at at substantial loss if he sold his 328 today. Mondials hit £60k then too!

For whatever reason the current boom seems more Porsche-led. It will come to an end at some point, just like the last one did. I'd be very happy to sell my 4.0RS right now if I had one.

[glovewitch]

I took this picture of the world's most expensive booze shelf from this year's LeMans. Really was good to see it being used to it's fullest of potential.

Edited by glovewitch on Friday 22 August 18:59

[Adz The Rat]

Mermaid said:

Are you suggesting the global market has got it wrong?

Not suggesting as such, it just surprises me that they aren't valued a lot higher. It is / was the pinnacle of Porsche design, limited build, bespoke engine and chassis, etc..... so if you compare it to other similar cars (Enzo, F50) they are much more valuable.

[Mermaid]

Adz The Rat said:

Mermaid said:

Are you suggesting the global market has got it wrong?

Not suggesting as such, it just surprises me that they aren't valued a lot higher. It is / was the pinnacle of Porsche design, limited build, bespoke engine and chassis, etc..... so if you compare it to other similar cars (Enzo, F50) they are much more valuable.

They will not drop so much if ever there is a classic car market correction.