Is this taking the michael?

[Countdown]

Matt UK said:

If you didn't negotiate this as part of the agreement, you won't get it.

Why should you?

^^^ What he said.

[Countdown]

freenote said:

Wow...emotional stuff.

1. My mistake, we are going on Monday for 64 plate
2. Many of the people getting so emotional about this are missing the point. It's not about the money (my wife just didn't fancy any extras at the time of asking), it's more the principal that given this is a large purchase and one would expect the dealer wants you leaving the forecourt happy, it would be quite nice to have a quarter tank of fuel so we can go off for a drive rather than straight to the petrol station.
It's simply an added extra that would make me feel like a valued customer who might then go back again or recommend them.

It's £100 out of their profit margin. (Actually though I do think they should have had more than the bare minimum in the tank)

[Funkycoldribena]

So what amount is reasonable? A litre? Enough for a few yards? None? £10?

[soad]

Funkycoldribena said:

So what amount is reasonable? A litre? Enough for a few yards? None? £10?

£20 or so.

[Zwolf]

soad said:

Funkycoldribena said:

So what amount is reasonable? A litre? Enough for a few yards? None? £10?

£20 or so.

We retail over 4,000 cars a year as a group. £80k of additional operating costs sees quite a a few staff get made redundant and poorer overall service offered in other areas as a result.

Still reasonable?

Payign MRRP and a full tank and set of mats is a reasonable expectation to have in place FOC upon handover (it would still be beyond what is actually required).

But very few people pay that for any new vehicle any more. More often they'll come in beating you up with an online broker price (from whom you can guarantee there won't be any additional fuel or mats supplied as the dealers that supply them operate on skeletal margins, taking all upfront and back end volume bonuses into account) and still expect all the same cuddly benefits of paying full up from a dealer. "You pays your money..." etc.

Or, to put it another way - if you're getting a free tank of fuel, you're paying for it in the deal anyway. More than the fuel light being left on in a used car is usually a resul t of th eprevious owner having left some in it, not dealer prep. They run empty on the pitch, at most they'll get a full (usually half) a 5 litre jerry can fill and be handed over with whatever's left.

Our group's way around this is to charge £149 for a "Delivery Pack" on all new and used vehicles (covers the cost of a presale service and MoT, plus a full tank of fuel. On an SMax/Mondeo/Galaxy that loses us a few £ as they're ~£90 to brim from empty). If people don't wish to pay it and take the car as it is, that's fine too and they're not under any illusion that there'll be any more fuel in it at handover than there was on test drive.

[R_U_LOCAL]

Just a thought OP - are you trading an old car in against the new one? If so, will you be leaving any fuel in it for the dealer?

I won't. My car is parked up on the drive now for the rest of the weekend with just enough fuel in it to drive to the dealers on Monday.

As long as I drive very carefully.

[daemon]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Just a thought OP - are you trading an old car in against the new one? If so, will you be leaving any fuel in it for the dealer?

I won't. My car is parked up on the drive now for the rest of the weekend with just enough fuel in it to drive to the dealers on Monday.

As long as I drive very carefully.

So you expect the dealer to put some fuel in your new car, but you're happy to freewheel to the dealership on fumes?

[fwaggie]

I would like to see a breakdown of the costs and profit for all parts in the chain, from raw materials to the end dealer.

The car manufacturers have got enough profit to put big money into creating new, niche, cars and car segments, and designing, building production lines or re-tooling existing lines, training staff, organising service support framework and part stocks, and getting a car through type approval isn't cheap.

If the (franchised?) dealers are actually making as little as they say they are, who is making the lions share of the profit?

Is it a case of the official dealers are part of a wholly owned subsidiary of the manufacturer, and they can then say that they can only buy the cars in for such and such a price, so they can only discount a tiny bit? When in fact we all know it's all one company and they can infact discount a hell of a lot more and *overall* still make a profit on the car?

[R_U_LOCAL]

daemon said:

So you expect the dealer to put some fuel in your new car, but you're happy to freewheel to the dealership on fumes?

Where did I say I expected the dealer to put fuel in my new car?

My point was that I'm not in the habit of giving free fuel to the dealer, and I expect the arrangement to be reciprocal.

[TonyRPH]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Just a thought OP - are you trading an old car in against the new one? If so, will you be leaving any fuel in it for the dealer?

I won't. My car is parked up on the drive now for the rest of the weekend with just enough fuel in it to drive to the dealers on Monday.

As long as I drive very carefully.

Genuine "lol" at this, the ultimate in tight arsedness.

I traded a car in recently with what must have been £15 worth of fuel in the tank.

So what?

I wasn't going to drive around aimlessly just to use it up so somebody didn't get the benefit of it.

Either way - it was money spent. End of.

[Butter Face]

R_U_LOCAL said:

Just a thought OP - are you trading an old car in against the new one? If so, will you be leaving any fuel in it for the dealer?

I won't. My car is parked up on the drive now for the rest of the weekend with just enough fuel in it to drive to the dealers on Monday.

As long as I drive very carefully.

I seriously have no issue with this at all. Many times a car has been left here with the fuel needle hanging off the end, it always amazes me how people manage to do it!

I have had one customer run out of fuel on the way in, had to call the RAC out as couldn't get the diesel to come through after he put in a jerry can's worth

[HTP99]

TonyRPH said:

R_U_LOCAL said:

Just a thought OP - are you trading an old car in against the new one? If so, will you be leaving any fuel in it for the dealer?

I won't. My car is parked up on the drive now for the rest of the weekend with just enough fuel in it to drive to the dealers on Monday.

As long as I drive very carefully.

Genuine "lol" at this, the ultimate in tight arsedness.

I traded a car in recently with what must have been £15 worth of fuel in the tank.

So what?

I wasn't going to drive around aimlessly just to use it up so somebody didn't get the benefit of it.

Either way - it was money spent. End of.

It does happen; I've had customers moan that their new car has turned up earlier than expected as they have recently fuelled their trade in.

[daemon]

fwaggie said:

I would like to see a breakdown of the costs and profit for all parts in the chain, from raw materials to the end dealer.

Its well documented how many of the big manufacturers have / are operating at a loss, particularly in europe - with the exception of the big german brands who seem to do well enough.

fwaggie said:

The car manufacturers have got enough profit to put big money into creating new, niche, cars and car segments, and designing, building production lines or re-tooling existing lines, training staff, organising service support framework and part stocks, and getting a car through type approval isn't cheap.

Trying to give people reasons to change, i expect. Trying to give people options.

fwaggie said:

If the (franchised?) dealers are actually making as little as they say they are, who is making the lions share of the profit?

The lions share of the profit is generally given away these days in discount. Nobody pays list price, and unless you're the cheapest the phone doesnt ring.

Also, dealerships can cost millions to run, so average that out and they probably need around £2,000-£3,000 profit on each car sold, just to break even.

fwaggie said:

Is it a case of the official dealers are part of a wholly owned subsidiary of the manufacturer, and they can then say that they can only buy the cars in for such and such a price, so they can only discount a tiny bit? When in fact we all know it's all one company and they can infact discount a hell of a lot more and *overall* still make a profit on the car?

No, they're generally franchises - you have an agreement with the manufacturer to buy their cars.

They cant discount "a hell of a lot" more and continue to operate. A friend of mine went for a job as a merc salesman and was interviewed by the sales manager and a director. The director was saying that they pay salesmen a flat commission on each car / unit sold, because the profit is that low. Where the salesman is bonused best is on finance, mats,flaps, paint protection, service packs, RTI insurance, tyre insurance, etc, etc. AND they hope to make a bit on every trade in - which is getting much harder to do as every customer these days is usually acutely aware of what their car is worth down to the last penny.

[woody2846]

We will always put between £20-£30 of fuel in the car if it has less the 1/4 of a tank. Nothing worse than picking up a new/used car that you are unfamiliar with and then play search the fuel station game.
If the customer is coming a big distance we will put a bit more in to get them on there way home as easily as possible.

If the customer has been easy to deal with, understanding of any hiccups or has bought previously then it's always a full tank and possibly mats.

Seems to always be received positively and the boss actively encourages it.

[daemon]

woody2846 said:

We will always put between £20-£30 of fuel in the car if it has less the 1/4 of a tank. Nothing worse than picking up a new/used car that you are unfamiliar with and then play search the fuel station game.
If the customer is coming a big distance we will put a bit more in to get them on there way home as easily as possible.

If the customer has been easy to deal with, understanding of any hiccups or has bought previously then it's always a full tank and possibly mats.

Seems to always be received positively and the boss actively encourages it.

I would doubt this particular dealer will let the car go out with only the 1/2 litre of fuel in it that it came from the manufacturer with BUT it is bemusing the O/P was offered a deal on fuel, declined it and is now peeved they're not getting *free* fuel.

[andymc]

I know the issues with lending punters courtesy cars and asking them to bring it back with the same amount of fuel it originally had in, they never do

[Butter Face]

andymc said:

I know the issues with lending punters courtesy cars and asking them to bring it back with the same amount of fuel it originally had in, they never do

Oh god yes. We supply free courtesy cars and ask people to return it with fuel.

I've seen people ranting that they've put in more than they used or they have 'only been to X and back so why should they put fuel in'

[Zwolf]

fwaggie said:

I would like to see a breakdown of the costs and profit for all parts in the chain, from raw materials to the end dealer.

The car manufacturers have got enough profit to put big money into creating new, niche, cars and car segments, and designing, building production lines or re-tooling existing lines, training staff, organising service support framework and part stocks, and getting a car through type approval isn't cheap.

If the (franchised?) dealers are actually making as little as they say they are, who is making the lions share of the profit?

Is it a case of the official dealers are part of a wholly owned subsidiary of the manufacturer, and they can then say that they can only buy the cars in for such and such a price, so they can only discount a tiny bit? When in fact we all know it's all one company and they can infact discount a hell of a lot more and *overall* still make a profit on the car?

You've answered your own question. The manufacturers make enough money to develop new products, that process is extremely expensive. They make the lion's share of profit from a new car. The national operator of th ebrand makes th enext largest, the franchised dealer makes the least.

The vast majority of dealerships are franchises who operate on agreed margins with the manufacturer, some of that is "up front" - i.e. the dealer pays the manufacturer an amount less than the retail price for the car and tries to make their profit from selling to the customer between that price and the MRRP. There is also further margin available to the deale rfor achieveing various performance criteria set by the manufacturer: passing mystery shops, training dealer staff, achieving registration targets in a given period, achieving finance/PCP penetration rates and volumes etc. which earns them additional profit long after the car has been delivered.

Of course dealers pre-empt that they will achieve these criteria and end up giving it away to customers before they know they've definitely earned it - it's a huge gamble, because they may not. If they play it safe and only give away their upfront margin, they won't get business in most cases.

To give you an idea of the respective margins, if you take the MRRP as 100%, the "factory gate price" is around 30%. This is then consigned to the national agent/importer at around 67%. This is then sold to the dealer at around 92% of MRRP, with the option to earn back to around 85%.

Out of that 30-67% margin comes the manufacturer profit - which is reinvested in product development and spent on global brand marketing. Out of the 67-85/92% margin comes the national representative's profit, which is spent on training dealer staff and national marketing, and made available to customers in th eform of manufacturer offers, part of the eventual deal you get.

The dealer gets around 7-10% of the (pre-VAT, registration, VED and delivery) price of the vehicle off when they pay the manufacturer for it. (Usually 90-180 days after it arrives in stock, daily stocking charges apply until then). They know if they achieve all their targets, there's another 5% or so available later, which they may bank on getting in order to offer a customer a 10-12% discount.

Our net new car profits run at around 1-1.5% profit or loss over a year, but without new cars there are no 1st tier used cars, there's fewer customers out there in our brand of vehicle coming back to service with us etc. They are a necessary evil for dealership and manufacturers have franchised dealers completely over a barrel with them.

[R_U_LOCAL]

TonyRPH said:

R_U_LOCAL said:

Just a thought OP - are you trading an old car in against the new one? If so, will you be leaving any fuel in it for the dealer?

I won't. My car is parked up on the drive now for the rest of the weekend with just enough fuel in it to drive to the dealers on Monday.

As long as I drive very carefully.

Genuine "lol" at this, the ultimate in tight arsedness.

I traded a car in recently with what must have been £15 worth of fuel in the tank.

So what?

I wasn't going to drive around aimlessly just to use it up so somebody didn't get the benefit of it.

Either way - it was money spent. End of.

If there was £15 cash in your glove box, would you leave it in the car for the dealer/next owner?

Thought not.

I haven't been driving around aimlessly just to use up the fuel before trade-in. I knew when I'd be changing my car and I chose to put in just enough fuel to last me, rather than filling up like I usually do.

Fuel is expensive these days. There are loads of threads on here about fuel economy - giving free fuel to the dealer/next owner is effectively achieving zero MPG.

Having said that, maybe I am a tightarse.

[daemon]

R_U_LOCAL said:

If there was £15 cash in your glove box, would you leave it in the car for the dealer/next owner?

Thats not money spent though is it.