RE: Marketing matters: PH Blog
Discussion
hmmm, if we're honest, like really really honest. If you're buying pretty much any new car let alone one knocking on the door of 30k, how you feel in it is pretty important.
Bob in the pauper spec 116i feels on top of the world and, with no real reason to do so, they feel above a great many road users due to that badge on the bonnet.
So when you've got the choice with your own cash, brand cachet plays a part. A pretty big part, which is why brands go to the lengths they do to market their cars the way they do.
We're mostly mugs
Bob in the pauper spec 116i feels on top of the world and, with no real reason to do so, they feel above a great many road users due to that badge on the bonnet.
So when you've got the choice with your own cash, brand cachet plays a part. A pretty big part, which is why brands go to the lengths they do to market their cars the way they do.
We're mostly mugs
Edited by T1berious on Monday 1st September 14:17
It's a bit like flat screen TVs
There's perhaps 4 major manufacturers of the actual screen, LG being one of the largest.
They supply those screens to a myriad of other brands
So I can walk into a shop and pay £600 for a Samsung or £500 for an LG; they have the same screen but the perceived quality of certain names prevails in the sales price.
There's perhaps 4 major manufacturers of the actual screen, LG being one of the largest.
They supply those screens to a myriad of other brands
So I can walk into a shop and pay £600 for a Samsung or £500 for an LG; they have the same screen but the perceived quality of certain names prevails in the sales price.
ally_f said:
r11co said:
What a load of subjective bullcrap. The 5.95% you refer to is called the placebo effect.
So true!actual figure of 5.95 was meant tongue in cheek............. (in reality it is what ever the market will stand)
RacerMike said:
And...it's also not a load of subjective bullcrap. VW definitely will have an 'attribute positioning spreadsheet' which will place various cars above and below each other to appeal to different people. The Leon appeals to people who care more about numbers than a badge and want something a bit raw and unruly. The Golf is a 'all things to all men' sort of car. They assign numbers to these things to make sure they achieve that aim. Even if that number is a development budget (so perhaps SEAT only get half the budget that VW get to develop the steering feel), it will still ultimately mean the Golf comes out slightly better subjectively.
+1should have read your email before sending mine
To me, if I wanted something that I could show off, I would lease/finance a 320d and say "aren't I posh"
But instead I prefer cars that are quirky, more involving and more enjoyable to own. That is why I bought a Fiat, I could've had a 320D/C200/A4TDI but I didn't want one.
So to me, the argument between a perceived brand is better than the other falls on deaf ears with me, I tend to sway more for value and enjoyment, rather than marketing. for example, I wanted a Soundbar, there was a Samsung one for 200, and an LG one, which is more powerful for 180, I went for the LG as it met my criteria and was more powerful, do I care that it doesn't match my Samsung TV? Not in the slightest.
The UK are suckers for brand snobbery and often cripple themselves financially to say the own snobbish item.
I do, however understand and know that you get what you pay for, so if you spend £50 on a pattern part it's not going to fit as well and an OE part costing £150.
But instead I prefer cars that are quirky, more involving and more enjoyable to own. That is why I bought a Fiat, I could've had a 320D/C200/A4TDI but I didn't want one.
So to me, the argument between a perceived brand is better than the other falls on deaf ears with me, I tend to sway more for value and enjoyment, rather than marketing. for example, I wanted a Soundbar, there was a Samsung one for 200, and an LG one, which is more powerful for 180, I went for the LG as it met my criteria and was more powerful, do I care that it doesn't match my Samsung TV? Not in the slightest.
The UK are suckers for brand snobbery and often cripple themselves financially to say the own snobbish item.
I do, however understand and know that you get what you pay for, so if you spend £50 on a pattern part it's not going to fit as well and an OE part costing £150.
wemorgan said:
Another marketing ploy. People feel rich buying Brand A and look down at people buying Brand B.
Its not really about marketing its about how things make you feel and what you like - to me the interior of the Golf is a far nicer place to be than the SEAT and because of that i dont mind paying a premium. What the Golf has that the SEAT doesnt't is a class image - at 50+ years old i can drive a Golf GTI without looking like im having a midlife crisis but the SEAT is too much of a youngsters car.
chrisemersons said:
Its not really about marketing its about how things make you feel and what you like - to me the interior of the Golf is a far nicer place to be than the SEAT and because of that i dont mind paying a premium.
What the Golf has that the SEAT doesnt't is a class image - at 50+ years old i can drive a Golf GTI without looking like im having a midlife crisis but the SEAT is too much of a youngsters car.
I read the above as 100% about marketing. How you feel about a product is not an independent emotion, but one that is learnt/taught as a result of marketing. What the Golf has that the SEAT doesnt't is a class image - at 50+ years old i can drive a Golf GTI without looking like im having a midlife crisis but the SEAT is too much of a youngsters car.
RacerMike said:
You appear to have missed the point of that number. I don't believe Dan was using 5.95% as an exact figure 
And...it's also not a load of subjective bullcrap. VW definitely will have an 'attribute positioning spreadsheet' which will place various cars above and below each other to appeal to different people.
Actually, no - I've got the point very well, and my post about perceived value should have made that clear. I've no doubt that manufacturers have their spreadsheets, but as I said - the minute you attempt to turn perceived value into something tangible and quantifiable, and admit that you think it is worth buying into you open the door for being fleeced. That is what allows manufacturers to reel-back the quality once in a while (eg. Mk IV Golf) - the perceived value will make up the difference in the mindset of the brainwashed.And...it's also not a load of subjective bullcrap. VW definitely will have an 'attribute positioning spreadsheet' which will place various cars above and below each other to appeal to different people.
Think of nouvelle cuisine - at the extremes you can pay a fortune to leave a restaurant hungry and malnourished, thus completely missing the point of the experience for the sake of the perceived image.
I'm not saying we should not respect a good product, but respect it for what it actually is.
Edited by r11co on Monday 1st September 15:18
ManicMunky said:
A few months ago I got some PCP quotes for the Golf GTI, Leon Cupra and the Octavia vRS... all other things being equal, the Skoda was the most expensive per month!
Thats because people still see the Skoda badge and turn their noses up, hence they are worth a pittance in 3 years and the PCP costs reflect that.r11co said:
RacerMike said:
You appear to have missed the point of that number. I don't believe Dan was using 5.95% as an exact figure
And...it's also not a load of subjective bullcrap. VW definitely will have an 'attribute positioning spreadsheet' which will place various cars above and below each other to appeal to different people.
Actually, no - I've got the point very well, and my post about perceived value should have made that clear. I've no doubt that manufacturers have their spreadsheets, but as I said - the minute you attempt to turn perceived value into something tangible and quantifiable, and admit that you think it is worth buying into you open the door for being fleeced. That is what allows manufacturers to reel-back the quality once in a while (eg. Mk IV Golf) - the perceived value will make up the difference in the mindset of the brainwashed.And...it's also not a load of subjective bullcrap. VW definitely will have an 'attribute positioning spreadsheet' which will place various cars above and below each other to appeal to different people.
Think of nouvelle cuisine - at the extremes you can pay a fortune to leave a restaurant hungry and malnourished, thus completely missing the point of the experience for the sake of the perceived image.
I'm not saying we should not respect a good product, but respect it for what it actually is.
Edited by r11co on Monday 1st September 15:18
Are you saying you buy stuff merely on the basis that it's fit for purpose?
Do you wear a watch?
Did it cost more than £1.99?
If so, why?
After all a cheap digital watch tells better time than most Swiss watches costing thousands.
It's the same principle with cars
r11co said:
Actually, no - I've got the point very well, and my post about perceived value should have made that clear. I've no doubt that manufacturers have their spreadsheets, but as I said - the minute you attempt to turn perceived value into something tangible and quantifiable, and admit that you think it is worth buying into you open the door for being fleeced. That is what allows manufacturers to reel-back the quality once in a while (eg. Mk IV Golf) - the perceived value will make up the difference in the mindset of the brainwashed.
Think of nouvelle cuisine - at the extremes you can pay a fortune to leave a restaurant hungry and malnourished, thus completely missing the point of the experience for the sake of the perceived image.
I'm not saying we should not respect a good product, but respect it for what it actually is.
Your reasoning is based entirely on perceived quality. A handling attribute, control weighting or steering feel attribute is not to do with perceived quality. It's to do with appealing to a specific type of customer.Think of nouvelle cuisine - at the extremes you can pay a fortune to leave a restaurant hungry and malnourished, thus completely missing the point of the experience for the sake of the perceived image.
I'm not saying we should not respect a good product, but respect it for what it actually is.
Someone who wants a city car wants the steering to be light and easy to turn. Ultimate feel is not an attribute that is required, and hence spending £25k on it is not a worthwhile development cost. The steering feel on a hot hatch is though. And when you have two hot hatches in your company, one has to be different from the other. Certain areas of the Leon are better (the power, basic spec and headline figures), but certain areas are worse (ultimate control feel and real world performance). This is because VAG reason that the Leon needs to appeal to a buyer who places spec and performance above subtlety and overall package (i.e. the younger buyer!)
Trust me when I say this. I work as an attribute engineer for a car company. Even if the 5.75% better steering feel was 'a real thing' it would be measureable, and if VW could assign a cost to it, they would assign that cost to whichever car they had higher on their attribute graph to make sure it had the better steering feel.
So to summarise. The Leon will have a different set of attributes to the Golf. It's not due to perceived quality. It's to do with that vehicles positioning within VAG.
The tangible subjective attributes like vehicle handling are all tuned, and all have a cost assigned. To make a car handle, you don't just design something on CAD and press the go button. There's about 1-2 years worth of testing and development that takes place to achieve a specific vehicle attribute. This is the case for pretty much everything from HVAC through to steering feel, stability control and throttle pedal response. Every manufacturer has to decide which models have which attributes. The Leon and the Golf have pre defined attributes that are independent of component cost or retail pricing.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 1st September 16:06
FWDRacer said:
yonex said:
VW or Seat kudos....
Pull 'em apart and they contain 70-80% the same part numbers. Who's rolling on the floor. The VW Marketing department. P*ssing themselves. The reason the that Ahem, Premium car showrooms have such large windows is so they can see people coming 
I bet that a quick look in your fridge, under your kitchen sink, in bathroom cabinet would probably reveal a host of brand leading products. Colgate? Cif? Kellogs Cornflakes? Stella? All brand leaders charging a premium.
None of us are immune.
FWDRacer said:
Pull 'em apart and they contain 70-80% the same part numbers. Who's rolling on the floor. The VW Marketing department. P*ssing themselves. The reason the that Ahem, Premium car showrooms have such large windows is so they can see people coming
The underside of a Macan is 95% the same as a Q5. Even the wishbones and subframes are stamped with the Audi logo. It's the subtleties of damping, ARBs and springs that make the difference. This is where the cost lies.Imagine the joy at pulling a SEAT apart and finding VW/Audi Logos aplenty. I've done it first hand
The modern cooking hatch is a chassis tune, interior trim style/materials and NVH pack away from the other generic platform sibling. The marketeers have got the (majority of the) population nicely tucked up
The modern cooking hatch is a chassis tune, interior trim style/materials and NVH pack away from the other generic platform sibling. The marketeers have got the (majority of the) population nicely tucked up
RacerMike said:
YES! Exactly my thoughts after driving the Golf R.
In isolation, the R is a fantastic car. But so is a Mk5 GTI. In fact, blindfolded, you'd struggle to tell a huge difference without a back to back test. So for me paying £350 a month to buy a new version of my car....that's 15% better. Just didn't make sense.
Which is now why I want a Porsche...
Which is why I leased an M135i this week... In isolation, the R is a fantastic car. But so is a Mk5 GTI. In fact, blindfolded, you'd struggle to tell a huge difference without a back to back test. So for me paying £350 a month to buy a new version of my car....that's 15% better. Just didn't make sense.
Which is now why I want a Porsche...
The Golf hasn't changed enough from the MK5. You can pick up a GTI at auction now for £3500. It's not ten time the price better. The 135 is a mother league in fun. And more power than my old 996!!!
VW Golfs have a reputation way beyond their real standing.
I've often heard buying a Golf is a "no brainer" which I just don't see as the case. It just often seems to be their justification for not sensibly considering any other options.
We've heard all the older Golf GTi owners admitting they knew their cars weren't as good to drive or as fast as most of the other competition. They still justified paying more money for less car due to their higher perception of quality.
Roll forward a couple of years and we've now got the Golf R. Guys have run out and traded their old VWs in for one. Suddenly they are now banging on about being one of the fastest hot hatches.
Suddenly it doesn't matter that the Golf R isn't that nice inside and that the higher quality S3 is just a little more. Now they have speed they are bragging of a fast 0-60mph time, that's all that matters. Now pinpointing the R is supposed to be a little better than the S3 on the absolute edge.
Same guys and a total reversal in attitude. Things that didn't really matter before and didn't define what a Golf was about are now the most important factors.
It just seems many people will buy a Golf and justify it with whatever argument they can. They were going to buy the car regardless of how good, bad or indifferent it was.
It isn't a car they are buying, just the classless image that they think it brings. An image to me that is quickly falling to bits as it does seem the Golfs are now the boy racers car of choice.
I've often heard buying a Golf is a "no brainer" which I just don't see as the case. It just often seems to be their justification for not sensibly considering any other options.
We've heard all the older Golf GTi owners admitting they knew their cars weren't as good to drive or as fast as most of the other competition. They still justified paying more money for less car due to their higher perception of quality.
Roll forward a couple of years and we've now got the Golf R. Guys have run out and traded their old VWs in for one. Suddenly they are now banging on about being one of the fastest hot hatches.
Suddenly it doesn't matter that the Golf R isn't that nice inside and that the higher quality S3 is just a little more. Now they have speed they are bragging of a fast 0-60mph time, that's all that matters. Now pinpointing the R is supposed to be a little better than the S3 on the absolute edge.
Same guys and a total reversal in attitude. Things that didn't really matter before and didn't define what a Golf was about are now the most important factors.
It just seems many people will buy a Golf and justify it with whatever argument they can. They were going to buy the car regardless of how good, bad or indifferent it was.
It isn't a car they are buying, just the classless image that they think it brings. An image to me that is quickly falling to bits as it does seem the Golfs are now the boy racers car of choice.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff