RE: Marketing matters: PH Blog

RE: Marketing matters: PH Blog

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pppppppppppppppp

169 posts

121 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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nickfrog said:
I still don't understand how a new Golf GTI is still more expensive than a new M135i after discount and after spec is equalised but we have to thank the BMW's designer for that I guess !
Eh? What difference does the discount make? Or are you comparing a discounted M135i vs a non-discounted Golf, in which case what's the point? Why not throw a ten-year-old 911 into the mix?

Earlier this year I wanted a replacement for my Ibiza TDi FR (a great car btw which converted me to diesels, but I digress).

I no longer needed a diesel, but needed back doors and space (thanks to a baby who arrived in July). I also needed something small enough to be easy enough to park on a crowded street, and be reasonably inconspicuous. Not that I like daft body kits anyway.
We rejected the M135 pretty quickly. Great engine, yes, but it's too small inside, particularly the back seats. And the interior just isn't that nice.
Same with the S3. I didn't like the way it drove. The suspension was way too hard and given the Mrs. hated the Ibiza for that reason it was off the list.
I loved the Leon Cupra. Driving it was great fun. Interior is much improved over old models and the standard kit list is great. The Mrs. didn't like the way it looked from the outside but I did.
Then there was the Golf (R, not GTi, which is a better comparison to the M135i and Cupra). The interior was by far the best. Exterior is dull, but most "hot" hatchbacks look either dull or stupid nowadays. There was also way more legroom than the rest in the back (important for the wife who sits there next to the baby).
A lot of the standard kit on the Golf, like adaptive cruise control and the automatic handbrake, didn't tempt me in the slightest, but now I have them I think they're great. Really surprised myself with that.
I got a 10% discount off the Golf, but would have shopped around on all of them to be honest.

Would I buy a Cupra over a GTi? Hell, yes. The performance alone makes it worthwhile. Compared with the R, performance is much the same so it's down to whether you think the extra kit and the way it looks and feels inside and outside is worth the money. For me it was. Brand had nothing to do with it. If my Golf R had Cupra R written on it I'd still have chosen it.

RocketRabbit

79 posts

160 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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£30k on a new car biggrin

In the morning traffic it's as fast as everything else.

Every time you park it, you're paranoid of it getting a door ding.

It's also less practical because you don't want to do anything in it incase it loses more value.

It loses money hand over fist anyway.

I am tempted by the Dacia Duster, but what does it do that my £1500 Mondeo doesn't?

And I ride my 600 Hornet into work so don't need to worry about that traffic jam everyone else is stuck in.

For £30k you can buy a POS to waft about in, a used Clio with brill NCAP for the kids (Should you be mad enough to have any), and a crazy toy that offers true driving thrills and not some double clutch, turbo, FWD, eleccy diffed barge on very soft tyres that cost £300 per corner. And you'd still be £12-13k better off.

But as the majority say, people who you don't know, will look down on you and think you are poor. Pass me the razor blades smile

RacerMike

4,192 posts

210 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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r11co said:
Cynicism is a product of this sort of deception, not a hazard to be got round by it. I don't doubt that a lot of time and resources are put into engineering car traits, but I also do doubt that it is all done altruistically.

I take you back to my point about examples of cars that have been diminished from one generation to the next - the manufacturers clearly thought that the buyer would either not notice, not care or blind themselves to it due to faith in the product's image. Sometimes (subtle) marketing has to do even more than that - the change has to be managed to prevent fallout - a negative has to be promoted as a positive or attention has to be taken away from the change.

For example - the impending switch from rear to front wheel drive for the next BMW 1 series has been discussed at great length in PH. I am of the opinion that the sudden appearance of 'X-drive' badges on BMW saloons and the greater availablility of all-wheel drive versions of 3 and 5 series cars is part of this exercise to change the mindset of the BMW owner (or aspirational BMW owner) away from it being a rear-drive only marque.

Of course anyone in the know would be aware that it has been producing AWD vehicles for other markets for decades, but for a long time the RWD thing suited the marketing men in the UK as the BMW Ultimate Selling Point, plus they didn't want to be seen to be following Audi into the AWD saloon market - Audi had made it theirs in the mind of the UK buyer with 'Quattro'.

'S-drive' is the term BMW now apply to 2WD vehicles and I strongly suspect that it will be used to refer to both FWD and RWD cars when the next 1 series materialises, thus subtly suggesting commonality and glossing over the difference!

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 2nd September 12:37
Your level of cynicism is quite frankly astounding! I assume you also believe that 9/11 was planned by the US government and Bin Laden is really on a US funded holiday in Barbados?

Quite clearly anything I say will be met with total disbelief from you, however, if you looked back through my posts there are plenty of responses in there to illustrate that I am indeed an engineer and not anything to do with Marketing. I find your ignorantly confident viewpoint fairly offensive to be honest, and there is zero point in me continuing as you're not going to believe a word I say!

All I will say though is that I think most vehicle Marketing departments could only dream of the power you suggest they do.

NAS

2,543 posts

230 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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RacerMike said:
All I will say though is that I think most vehicle Marketing departments could only dream of the power you suggest they do.
Agreed. Work in the industry too (although in sales) and every day it astonishes me just how much work is taken up by the tiniest details that most people think are 'easy' and 'obvious'. The complexity of the car industry and its' products is mind-boggling.

nickfrog

20,871 posts

216 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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pppppppppppppppp said:
nickfrog said:
I still don't understand how a new Golf GTI is still more expensive than a new M135i after discount and after spec is equalised but we have to thank the BMW's designer for that I guess !
Eh? What difference does the discount make? Or are you comparing a discounted M135i vs a non-discounted Golf, in which case what's the point? Why not throw a ten-year-old 911 into the .
I am trying to compare like for like as the max discount on the Golf is around 10% compared to around 20% for the BMW. Which makes the BMW cheaper in terms of transaction price.

r11co

Original Poster:

6,244 posts

229 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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RacerMike said:
Quite clearly anything I say will be met with total disbelief from you.
You wanted to know what weasel words were? Well, above is a classic example. You have asserted a result you have no actual evidence for in order to avoid having to come up with a full response.

I've mentioned a few times now several known examples where a manufacturer has produced a new generation of a well respected car where corners have been intentionally cut compared to its predecessor. You haven't even attempted to explain how that fits with your attribute engineering.

I have stated that I believe they feel they can get away with it because of the goodwill carried by the perceived value of the brand and model than of the objective qualities of the car itself - the same perceived value that allows manufacturers to assert that two otherwise identical products can justify different list prices.

I suspect though that this is out of your frame of reference. You operate within the industry and the mindset that anything is being done for negative reasons is simply not tolerated. Even suggesting the possibility is taboo.

I'm not doubting or even questioning your work. What I am saying though is that product improvement is not always the objective.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 2nd September 14:08

FWDRacer

3,564 posts

223 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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r11co said:
You have asserted a result you have no actual evidence for ....
Neat summation of Attribute Engineers hehe

GTEYE

2,092 posts

209 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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I accept that the majority of the oily bits are much the same.

My issue with the Seat is that although cheaper, it isn't that much cheaper, and that's where the Golf scores.

Through consistency of "brand", like the Beetle before it and say the 911, there remains a ready market for used Golfs, because the next one doesn't differ that much from the mark before it. That helps keep residuals up, and actually makes the Golf a cheaper car to own taking into account all costs.

I'm not really sure what Seat as a brand is supposed to stand for, and looking from Mark 1 to Mark 3 Leons, there is little if any consistency. Which means older models look instantly dated, and residuals suffer.

Sorry, Golf for me as well. Maybe I just like the tartan seats too!

RacerMike

4,192 posts

210 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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r11co. You use the typical approach of anyone who is desperately trying to prove their beliefs with no real evidence. Every single one of your posts that have 'replied' to mine basically centers around discrediting what I've written, either by picking individual sentences out of context, or indeed by just playing the 'I don't believe you are what you say you are or your evidence'.

It's exactly the same techniques used by the '911 truth' characters or religious fanatics in discussion of the existence (or not) of God. All of these 'discussions' put forward by such people center around a similar style of argument to you....trying to discredit the wealth of evidence to the contrary.

Ultimately here we have two points of view. Mine, which is based on sound knowledge of the industry and how it works. And yours, the cynical viewpoint of someone who believes anything I, or anyone say is lies.

Seeing as I'm an engineer, I'm actually quite good at looking at things objectively. The situation is this. Let's compare the information that supports my statements, and the information against it.

FOR:
Dan Trent has physically driven both the Golf GTI and the Leon Cupra and has come to the conclusion himself (based on extensive experience as an automotive journalist) that there is a noticeable (and quite probably measureable) difference between the cars. The Leon feels just a little less polished.

AGAINST:
You claim Dan has been paid to write this

FOR:
A number of other people comment that they also think the Golf is subjectively a better package than the Leon.

AGAINST:
You claim it's the placebo effect and they don't know what they're talking about.

FOR:
I provide evidence based on my position as an attribute engineer that agrees with Dan's original post.

AGAINST:
You discredit my data based on your lack of understanding of what an 'attribute engineer is' and that I in fact work for marketing.

FOR:
I provide a detailed explanation as to what an attribute engineer is

AGAINST:
You discredit my view point by saying I'm using 'weasily words'.

FOR:
A number of other people who also appear to have experience of working within the automotive engineering also agree with Dan Trent and myself

AGAINST:
You again discredit their side of the discussion.

See where I'm going with this?

So. I'll leave it to the majority to decide here. Either they trust what I'm saying as a degree qualified autmotive engineer who has worked in the design of vehicles at a component level for 3 years and in the tuning of vehicle level attributes for 3 and a half years when I say that VW will definitely have said spreadsheet explained by Dan. Also trust that these differences are due to both cost, brand positioning and/or target market.

Or...believe you who has failed to provide any actual evidence that supports your point of view and who's only angle of attack is to discredit those who have provided additive comments to the article that Dan has (independently) written. I'm sure you'll probably say something about being unable to provide proof because it's carefully covered up, or that 'I should provide the proof if I am who I say I am', but in such situations, you know full well that it's not possible for me to divulge information about the company I work for. Much like the guy who challenged atheists through his YouTube channel to prove that God doesn't exist in return for $100,000. He knows that it is as impossible to prove he doesn't exist as it is to prove he does. What is overwhelmingly the case though is that the evidence that suggests he doesn't, far outweighs the evidence that suggests he does. Much like this situation! In Science, one has to assess the evidence for and against, and the argument that stacks up best, is the likely conclusion. Not always, but in the majority of cases it is. You shouting loudly the black is white, does not change the fact that the majority of others would agree that black is indeed black, and white is most definitely white.

And for anyone who feels like they need to verify my position, following a few clues from my posts and profile will be able to find what they need using Google...

QED

Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 2nd September 14:27

Andy JB

1,319 posts

218 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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Fascinating subject brand perception - well during a bored lunch break anyway....

We are all different & couldn't agree when studying marketing at how we are all assumed to be sheep and think alike. Afterall we don't all drive the same cars as our perceptions are different - a good thing.

Interesting example is a colleague who doesn't like the fact i drive an audi. My perception & rationale is different to his.

He drives a ford and chose it because firstly he states because of brand image as he thinks it says a lot about him not following a trend & being different - classless if you like - and thats fine. It drove his purchase decision first. I have also owned fords.

I drive an audi primarily for its germanic build quality, & blend of driveablity in the real world, intending to keep it for many years. This proved to be sound, in 11 years it was totally reliable at 14 years old driving like new with only regular servicing required.(i also had new company cars) It covered all driving bases.

Brand was very much down there, as were residuals. So guess what, i bought another which also proved the same ownership experience. What condition would a 14 year old ford be in? I am not brand loyal & owned most makes.

To the marketing men they assume the audi driver rates brand highly & the ford less so, where as this example is completely opposite. Similar to the teacher who drives a Citroen 2CV because it doesn't say anything about him or his interest in cars - whereas it says exactly the opposite.

Maldini35

2,913 posts

187 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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yonex said:
Maldini35 said:
FWDRacer said:
yonex said:
VW or Seat kudos....

rofl
Pull 'em apart and they contain 70-80% the same part numbers. Who's rolling on the floor. The VW Marketing department. P*ssing themselves. The reason the that Ahem, Premium car showrooms have such large windows is so they can see people coming hehe
Human DNA is 97% the same as a chimpanze but I'm not convinced I'd want to date one.

I bet that a quick look in your fridge, under your kitchen sink, in bathroom cabinet would probably reveal a host of brand leading products. Colgate? Cif? Kellogs Cornflakes? Stella? All brand leaders charging a premium.
None of us are immune.
You know what, you're wrong. I woke up to the mega brand rip off a while back and tried the generic vs premium. Some things are worth paying for, a VW over a Seat IMO is not. Genius bit or marketing though, got to hand it to them making fall over themselves to convince people that the same product is worth paying more...or less, for.
It's not worth it, IN YOUR OPINION. Thousands of people around the world would disagree with you.

It is not an absolute. You are not the arbiter of value for humankind - despite being so enlightened about the 'mega brand rip off'.

You are not right or wrong. You simply have an opinion.



Edited by Maldini35 on Tuesday 2nd September 14:38

ghibbett

1,900 posts

184 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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@ Dan Trent - perhaps a piece on Attribute Engineers may make for an interesting insight into (a very small part of) the Automotive World for the pages of PH?

Turbobanana

6,159 posts

200 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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samyalson said:
Turbobanana said:
Does anybody REALLY care about the marketing?

Don't we just buy what we like? (And no, I am not wearing a Tesco suit or leatherette shoes etc).
Your comment tells me that marketers own your mind, you just can't see it.
Perhaps you're right. Equally, perhaps I am in the minority; I buy what I like, and don't really care what other people think (that's why I own a yellow Saab, a red Skoda and an LG television).
This thread is getting far too political for me. Over and out.

wemorgan

3,578 posts

177 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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ghibbett said:
@ Dan Trent - perhaps a piece on Attribute Engineers may make for an interesting insight into (a very small part of) the Automotive World for the pages of PH?
+1

I think there's an apatite for a series of such articles on PH.

r11co

Original Poster:

6,244 posts

229 months

Tuesday 2nd September 2014
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RacerMike said:
r11co. You use the typical approach of anyone who is desperately trying to prove their beliefs with no real evidence.
So says the person who states that their job is to give subjective opinions on something with no real evidence.... confused

I've got to agree though - this thread is becoming political, even down to the standard avoidance tactics.

You replied with a list of nit-picks about what I said, once again ignoring my question about product development which is not always in the interests of the end-user and instead exploits their brand loyalty. Are you denying this has happened? Are you stating that manufacturers never exploit brand loyalty? I presented you with several examples that prove my point, but you just ignore them and repeat that I have no real evidence.

RacerMike said:
AGAINST:You discredit my view point by saying I'm using 'weasily words'.
This is not an argument - you did use weasel words, and my pointing it out does not mitigate that.

Edited by r11co on Tuesday 2nd September 22:11

ghibbett

1,900 posts

184 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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rolleyes Wow...banghead

eltawater

3,107 posts

178 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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RacerMike said:
Trust me when I say this. I work as an attribute engineer for a car company.
Up until this post, I had no idea such a role existed.

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to give us such a fascinating insight into your work. It's disappointing that others have felt the need to resort to what amounts to a character assassination.

I, for one, would welcome more informative posts such as yours on these forums.

Maldini35

2,913 posts

187 months

Wednesday 3rd September 2014
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eltawater said:
RacerMike said:
Trust me when I say this. I work as an attribute engineer for a car company.
Up until this post, I had no idea such a role existed.

I'd like to thank you for taking the time to give us such a fascinating insight into your work. It's disappointing that others have felt the need to resort to what amounts to a character assassination.

I, for one, would welcome more informative posts such as yours on these forums.
Totally agree. Let's hear more from informed professionals working in the industry.

Makes a refreshing change from the usual pub bores playing to the gallery.


AdamV8V

1,379 posts

155 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
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Andy JB said:
I drive an audi primarily for its germanic build quality, & blend of driveablity in the real world, intending to keep it for many years.
Andy JB said:
Brand was very much down there.
Wow, as a Marketer, the above insight is fascinating. As is a lot of this discussion.

Could it be possible that Audi have crafted (and heavily invested in) a brand strategy over a long time that makes sure you buy an Audi for exactly the reasons you state?

Everybody responsible for any consumer touchpoint at Audi, be it the dealership experience, the way the cup holder slides out, their motorsport strategy or their advertising will have a set of brand attributes they need to uphold. Not knowing Audi's strategy from the inside (but having owned a few, and with a level of professional insight), I would imagine "Germanic build quality" and "Drivability in the real world" would feature somewhere.

They don't invest millions running 3x LMP1 cars every year at Le Mans for the love of motorsport. They do it to demonstrate things like their Germanic build quality (and more lately diesel tech innovation) by showing that their cars can drive around for a whole day, averaging something silly like 130mph, and not (on the whole) break down.

They have built, and continue to build, a massively powerful sub-brand called 'Quattro' because you want a car that is "driveable in the real world". Even if your particular model happens to be 2WD, Quattro is so inextricably linked to Audi that you feel comfortable driving a car from "the people who do Quattro" (they also won a few WRCs to prove the point).

I know we feel we're all very smart and "immune" but, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you bought an Audi exactly because of the brand and what it stands for.

The best way to not feel bad about it is to accept the fact that us so-called "Marketing Men" are not out to "dupe" you. You bought the right car for you, and you seem very happy with your decision. You knew what you wanted, and Audi (and the evil Marketing Men therein) is the company that has understood the market potential of that need. They've engineered cars to meet that need and a brand that acts as a mental or emotional short-cut between your need and their offering.

What I'm not saying is that Marketers are some kind of philanthropic match-makers, going out of their way to generously create and communicate products so everyone in the world is a happier, better person because they bought the best bread / cola / car for them. No, they are men and women paid by companies to help them sell more stuff.

And the best way to sell more stuff is to understand what stuff people like and why they like it, work with designers / developers / engineers to make that stuff, make sure it's realistically (yet profitably) priced and then tell them about it in a way that will make them want to find out more and eventually buy it.

Note only the last bit is really about advertising (including the banner ads that help Haymarket fund this site) and PR (the cars that Messrs Prosser et al get to drive, the fancy launch events etc), so to say successful marketing is just good advertising is like saying Usain Bolt is so fast because he has the best 'dip' at the line.

VAG is full of very smart people (some of whom will work in Marketing) and has a massively complex product line-up and brand family. This article, as Dan alludes to, is to show their mastery in consumer insight and segmentation, product engineering (from the likes of RacerMike) and brand management. And this is all before an ad has been written.

By making the Golf 'feel' better and the Leon more powerful and cheaper (and therefore have greater perceived 'value' for those who seek that), VAG will NET sell more cars than by only having the Golf in that class, by taking market share from the likes of BMW (in the case of the Golf) and Ford (in the case of the SEAT).

And that is where Marketing earns its salt. No conspiracy, no duping, just people doing a job.

Edited by AdamV8V on Thursday 4th September 21:09

RacerMike

4,192 posts

210 months

Thursday 4th September 2014
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AdamV8V said:
Stuff
Excellent post Adam. Put it better than I did, although I guess that's why you're in marketing and I'm and engineer!