RE: Noble M600 - onward and upward
Discussion
Please excuse a manufacturer posting on this enthusiast site, we generally don't believe it is within our remit as a manufacturer to post on forums. So please forgive us if we are intruding! This forum is a great place where those who are interested can voice their views. Looking through the post it is gratifying that they generally give us at Noble a fairly positive response, for this we are grateful! Indeed we are enthusiasts ourselves, we love our work and are very proud of our product. However it appears that there is some confusion regarding what and what isn't included as far as digital driver assistance is included in the Noble M600. It does have traction control, it is fairly non-invasive and can be, for those of a strong disposition, turned off completely (via the infamous missile switch). This system is also linked to the adjustable power switch (Road 450, Track 550 and Race 650BHP) which adjust the amount of traction and throttle sensitivity with the BHP selected. Hence in Road mode the throttle is very long and lazy (allowing for a comfortable response in traffic) whilst in Race mode the throttle is very sensitive with less traction.
We appreciate and really enjoy your informed feedback and enjoy the debate, but please one heartfelt request, before criticising the build quality or equating the Noble M600 to a kit car, please take the time to actually look at one in the flesh. If you cannot find one to look at (we only build about 12 per year) give us a call here to have a look at the factory...it might just change your opinion!
We appreciate and really enjoy your informed feedback and enjoy the debate, but please one heartfelt request, before criticising the build quality or equating the Noble M600 to a kit car, please take the time to actually look at one in the flesh. If you cannot find one to look at (we only build about 12 per year) give us a call here to have a look at the factory...it might just change your opinion!
I had a go in one of the old Prototypes at Brunters a while back. It was a well worn hack that had only just been revived after a couple of years in storage but it was still devastatingly quick and amazingly friendly on the limit. Speaks volumes that I felt comfortable enough to drift a 600bhp turbocharged, mid engined car within a couple of laps of the sprint circuit!
Ozzie Osmond said:
ratty6464 said:
On track it is relatively easy to out brake most abs systems.
PH myth number 4,000.You can't outbrake ABS unless you have 4 legs working on 4 brake pedals and can think/react at the speed of a microprocessor. Otherwise it wouldn't be banned from most race series - would it?
There are a few situations where a driver cannot physically match ABS for the reasons you describe (split mu for example), plenty where a human driver might only be able to match ABS (low friction), and in a panic situation it all goes out the window. However using all the friction on offer for braking reduces lateral stability, and as such road car systems back off slightly for safety.
Hence a half decent driver, particularly in a straight line in the dry, can beat an ABS system. In fact I beat a modern ABS system by some margin when doing brake testing last week without it even being the objective.
The Wookie said:
In fact I beat a modern ABS system by some margin when doing brake testing last week without it even being the objective.
I think you need to fire the guys who did the calibration of the ABS then!Last time i did this, not one of the dev drivers could any longer "beat" the latest BOSCH ABS even the the "worst case for ABS" situation (straight, dry, even, high Mu track). The quality of the dynamics model and mu adaption is now so high that the system can modulate tyre slip to within a few % of the optimum value under pretty much ALL dynamic conditions.
It's also worth noting, that when you say you beat the ABS, by how much? Given that a modern car stops from 60mph in about 40m these days, i suspect if you can beat it, it's by about 1to2m at max. Then you need to do it say repeat it 20 times and take an average, the standard deviation of the ABS stopping distance will b very small indeed.
As you say though, this is irrelevant. While a very skilled, and "primed" driver can possibly just about match, or beat if they are lucky, the ABS in optimum conditions, in sub-optimum ones with an average driver the ABS will be miles ahead, and that's before you include the ability to control the yaw of the car and maintain steering authority.
For a road car, ABS is not about individual "absolute" stopping distance optimisation, it's about allowing the driver to control the car in-extremis and keep the response of the vehicle as linear as possible in as many different situations as possible.
Getting back OT (ish) the issue for small volume manufacturers like Nobel is that the manufacturers of the ABS systems only have a std sign off procedure. That procedure has been validated and optimised to provide an emourmously safe system for high volume products. Hence, it is both extremely expensive and very very difficult to change or "short cut". Last time i checked, BOSCH want around £1.8M for a basic ABS calibration/validation. if you make 12 cars a year, that's a massive on-cost!
It is simply not worth it for large companies like BOSCH to dabble in the low volume market. if you are say "mclaren", you probably have enough clout and give a nice "marketable" story to make it worth their while to supply a system (not at reduced cost mind), but if you are "Noble" hmmm, not so sure (no disrespect to Noble btw!)
^^^ These reasons are precisely why i am developing my own ABS system based on production hardware ;-)
Oh, and to add:
If the brake team are on the ball, and you manage to "beat" their system, they dam well should be looking at the data from your record braking(sic) stop and be re-optimising their cal!
At a track event last year, i could beat the system by a couple of % in the morning, but after lunch and a quick reflash, the ABS matched me yard for yard ;-)
If the brake team are on the ball, and you manage to "beat" their system, they dam well should be looking at the data from your record braking(sic) stop and be re-optimising their cal!
At a track event last year, i could beat the system by a couple of % in the morning, but after lunch and a quick reflash, the ABS matched me yard for yard ;-)
Max_Torque said:
I think you need to fire the guys who did the calibration of the ABS then!
Perhaps! Worth pointing out that the vehicle was considerably heavier than original design GVW and fitted with our brake kit (matching original piston area mind) but still, 6.3m/s2 with ABS vs 7.5m/s2 MFDD on one configuration! The rest were closer but still beat it by a few tenths of a m/s2 more often than not!Can't argue with the rest of the comments
Road car ABS is quite optimised towards stability/safety too, on last gen and older cars more so.
It seems the integrated ESP/ABS these days means you can run aggressive and still retain stability and get very near optimum results.
But I can see why many racing brakes without ABS can out-perform older ABS systems because they will have had some margin for retaining stability doing emergency Elk tests under braking etc.
The logic of why Noble don't run a Bosch system makes sense, thanks for that Max Torque. Validation doesn't seem cheap!
I suppose this is why many manufacturers like this prefer to go higher price, higher spec etc. The volumes are likely still the same but they can make many times the money to invest in better design and equipment etc.
No wonder the cheaper end custom stuff TVR and Noble used to make doesn't exist so much any more.
Dave
It seems the integrated ESP/ABS these days means you can run aggressive and still retain stability and get very near optimum results.
But I can see why many racing brakes without ABS can out-perform older ABS systems because they will have had some margin for retaining stability doing emergency Elk tests under braking etc.
The logic of why Noble don't run a Bosch system makes sense, thanks for that Max Torque. Validation doesn't seem cheap!
I suppose this is why many manufacturers like this prefer to go higher price, higher spec etc. The volumes are likely still the same but they can make many times the money to invest in better design and equipment etc.
No wonder the cheaper end custom stuff TVR and Noble used to make doesn't exist so much any more.
Dave
Indeed. Bascially the "middle ground" is a no go in terms of car development.
You either:
a) built a few, but charge astronomical prices ('egg ONE:1, AM 0ne-77 etc)
b) built s**t loads, and make em cheap (Ford Fiesta, Kia pro-ceed etc)
In between is no mans land. You aren't going to sell enough to get economies of scale, but you can't ramp up the price because no one will buy one!
Unfortunately, and particularly with regard to Electronic Feature Content, the low priced volume sellers deliver massively, where you can amortise the dev costs across thousands (even millions) of cars, meaning your boggo super mini now has ABS, DSC, Cruise, DSG, Bluetooth, multi mode HVAC, NAV, Internet connectivity etc.
You either:
a) built a few, but charge astronomical prices ('egg ONE:1, AM 0ne-77 etc)
b) built s**t loads, and make em cheap (Ford Fiesta, Kia pro-ceed etc)
In between is no mans land. You aren't going to sell enough to get economies of scale, but you can't ramp up the price because no one will buy one!
Unfortunately, and particularly with regard to Electronic Feature Content, the low priced volume sellers deliver massively, where you can amortise the dev costs across thousands (even millions) of cars, meaning your boggo super mini now has ABS, DSC, Cruise, DSG, Bluetooth, multi mode HVAC, NAV, Internet connectivity etc.
noblecars said:
Please excuse a manufacturer posting on this enthusiast site, we generally don't believe it is within our remit as a manufacturer to post on forums. So please forgive us if we are intruding! This forum is a great place where those who are interested can voice their views. Looking through the post it is gratifying that they generally give us at Noble a fairly positive response, for this we are grateful! Indeed we are enthusiasts ourselves, we love our work and are very proud of our product. However it appears that there is some confusion regarding what and what isn't included as far as digital driver assistance is included in the Noble M600. It does have traction control, it is fairly non-invasive and can be, for those of a strong disposition, turned off completely (via the infamous missile switch). This system is also linked to the adjustable power switch (Road 450, Track 550 and Race 650BHP) which adjust the amount of traction and throttle sensitivity with the BHP selected. Hence in Road mode the throttle is very long and lazy (allowing for a comfortable response in traffic) whilst in Race mode the throttle is very sensitive with less traction.
We appreciate and really enjoy your informed feedback and enjoy the debate, but please one heartfelt request, before criticising the build quality or equating the Noble M600 to a kit car, please take the time to actually look at one in the flesh. If you cannot find one to look at (we only build about 12 per year) give us a call here to have a look at the factory...it might just change your opinion!
Thanks for contributing, and putting a few internet know-alls straight. The bottom sentence of your post, no doubt missed by many who are continuing to blindly debate, is a terrific gesture, and not one I can imagine many other manufacturers making, selling cars at that price point.We appreciate and really enjoy your informed feedback and enjoy the debate, but please one heartfelt request, before criticising the build quality or equating the Noble M600 to a kit car, please take the time to actually look at one in the flesh. If you cannot find one to look at (we only build about 12 per year) give us a call here to have a look at the factory...it might just change your opinion!
As a previous 3R and currently for the last 7 years M400 owner, I'd echo the sentiments of someone earlier......... if only you could make an updated M12/3R/M400......I'm not bothered whether it makes you any money, I just want to be able to buy one!
Edited by sjc on Tuesday 9th September 16:04
Thank you for your kind comments. We too share your frustration regarding the manufacturing of a more "affordable" Supercar. We would love to do so, one never knows, one day we may be able to. We are proud of our heritage but had to take a decision as to our route to market. Our desire was to actually manufacture the car in the UK, to actually manufacture a British Supercar that would, and I believe has, impressed some of the establishment, indeed some of our biggest "fans" are the other super car manufacturers. Our "analogue" approach was a deliberate device to ensure that we were offering something the other manufacturers were not. We are not, I hope, either foolish or arrogant enough to believe that we could take on the might of the established and admired Ferrari, Porsche etc by offering something similar, they do what they do incredibly well. We offer something different, something that perhaps doesn't have such a universal appeal but still has a small position in the market. We are proud of the fact that none of our owners, has ever felt the need nor had the disposition to sell. This in itself is flattering and reassuring, for it is the M600 owner who truly knows the joys of its remarkable attributes. Added to this we have never had a bad review. The M600, thank God, is not for everybody, we don't sell it as such. Its looks, performance, badge and general "personality, do not suit everybody...but there again it's not meant too.
I saw the Red one they had on Top Gear in the wild parked up M600LHD I think?
Tbh, I thought it was mega, fit and finish looked excellent, interior looked very nice, and just overall looked like a £200k car..
Can't really see why anyone would say it looks like a kit car. And looks wise I think it looks spot on!
Tbh, I thought it was mega, fit and finish looked excellent, interior looked very nice, and just overall looked like a £200k car..
Can't really see why anyone would say it looks like a kit car. And looks wise I think it looks spot on!
noblecars said:
Its looks, performance, badge and general "personality, do not suit everybody...but there again it's not meant too.
And that's exactly why it's so good, in a world where volume and making everyone happy tends to rule over suiting specific markets more closely.It may not suit everyone, but those it does suit have a car that fits them perfectly.
Good of Noble Cars to come on here and contribute to the debate/
I've looked at the M600 at Goodwood and in the flesh it is stunning - the opposite of the blingy Pagani approach (gorgeous as they are on their own terms).
I managed to blag a test drive of an M12 and the ride/handling balance was superb. The M600 will be forever out of reach but I am glad that there are still companies out there focused on producing cars where driver enjoyment is about engagement and feel as well as massive speed
I've looked at the M600 at Goodwood and in the flesh it is stunning - the opposite of the blingy Pagani approach (gorgeous as they are on their own terms).
I managed to blag a test drive of an M12 and the ride/handling balance was superb. The M600 will be forever out of reach but I am glad that there are still companies out there focused on producing cars where driver enjoyment is about engagement and feel as well as massive speed
GM182 said:
the opposite of the blingy Pagani approach (gorgeous as they are on their own terms).
I was going to make a similar comment earlier.Pagani seemed to drift after their earlier cars and now they are quite blingy.
Noble have stuck to their design ethos quite nicely and it's paying off in timeless looking cars, which fits their buying demographics needs even more I suppose, vs a contemporary look that will date quickly.
Mr Whippy said:
GM182 said:
the opposite of the blingy Pagani approach (gorgeous as they are on their own terms).
I was going to make a similar comment earlier.Pagani seemed to drift after their earlier cars and now they are quite blingy.
Noble have stuck to their design ethos quite nicely and it's paying off in timeless looking cars, which fits their buying demographics needs even more I suppose, vs a contemporary look that will date quickly.
Going back to Nobles... I think the M600 looks fantastic, in a very different way to Pagani. It's a very simple and graceful shape, probably one of my favourite modern cars. I'm only 26, so it's not rose-tinted specs etc, but in my opinion a lot of the modern cars (supercars in particular) are over-sculptured (such as LaFerreri, 458 etc). All the best with the future Noble, and thanks for providing something different for those that want it.
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