"Motorists have ruined England"
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
It's successful on an individual basis but that doesn't mean it is a good solution for society as a whole.
Allowing people free reign to do what they want is great until their actions start to negatively impact on others. I'd suggest that with cars in many city centres this point has been reached.
With respect to desirability, there are issues where an individuals desires may need to be curtailed for good reasons. I may wish to wash my car with a hose pipe but if there is a water shortage my right to do so will may be removed.
Do you include all areas of personal choice in this outlook? Food - allowing free choice to eat hamburgers means less rainforest etc etc. Hosepipe bans are an anachronism of the UK (and a feature of chronically poor water management) but if you pay on a metered supply who should dictate what you use it for?Allowing people free reign to do what they want is great until their actions start to negatively impact on others. I'd suggest that with cars in many city centres this point has been reached.
With respect to desirability, there are issues where an individuals desires may need to be curtailed for good reasons. I may wish to wash my car with a hose pipe but if there is a water shortage my right to do so will may be removed.
Edited by Devil2575 on Monday 8th September 16:46
The Don of Croy said:
Do you include all areas of personal choice in this outlook? Food - allowing free choice to eat hamburgers means less rainforest etc etc. Hosepipe bans are an anachronism of the UK (and a feature of chronically poor water management) but if you pay on a metered supply who should dictate what you use it for?
Whether hose pipe bans are as a result of poor management or not is irrellevant. If there is insufficient water availible to ensure continuity of supply for basic requirements at a specific time then it is right to curtail use regardless. Poor mangement should be addressed as well but you can't avoid having to deal with the imediate problem, water meters or not.Hamburgers and rainforest. Well the responsibility there lies with the meat supply. The consumer doesn't need to be directly stopped, but the meat producer needs to operate a sustainable model that is not doing long term harm. The consumer will be impacted by rising prices and limited supply.
The subject of rainforrests is an interesting one though. It's a bit rich for a country, like ours, that has over the years deforested it's land to make way for food production to tell another that it cannot do the same. Perhaps if we are serious then we should be setting an example, by for instance allowing our moorlands to return to forest. As it stands they currently only serve a limited use as grouse habitat and the associated hunting. They have to be maintained to prevent them returning to woodland so why not let it happen. At least then we cannot be accused of hypocracy when we tell other countries that they need to preserve their forests for the good of the planet.
BGarside said:
There is no 'one size fits all' solution. This doesn't alter the fact that plenty of people COULD leave their car at home occasionally and wall, cycle or use public transport for at least some of their journeys.
People do leave their cars at home occasionally, quite a lot in fact, That's why London trains and tubes are crammed solid in the rush hour. Whenever the tubes go on strike, traffic increases, what do you think these people are doing with their cars the rest of the time?The fact is that some journeys are impractical by public transport, in which case it's perfectly reasonable to dig the car keys out of the back of the cupboard and drive. At which point lefty authoritarians say
'you can't possibly have made a rational decision, you are obviously making a journey which could be better made by bus but you are so stupid you use the car for every single journey.'
Devil2575 said:
The Don of Croy said:
Do you include all areas of personal choice in this outlook? Food - allowing free choice to eat hamburgers means less rainforest etc etc. Hosepipe bans are an anachronism of the UK (and a feature of chronically poor water management) but if you pay on a metered supply who should dictate what you use it for?
Whether hose pipe bans are as a result of poor management or not is irrellevant. If there is insufficient water availible to ensure continuity of supply for basic requirements at a specific time then it is right to curtail use regardless. Poor mangement should be addressed as well but you can't avoid having to deal with the imediate problem, water meters or not.Hamburgers and rainforest. Well the responsibility there lies with the meat supply. The consumer doesn't need to be directly stopped, but the meat producer needs to operate a sustainable model that is not doing long term harm. The consumer will be impacted by rising prices and limited supply.
The subject of rainforrests is an interesting one though. It's a bit rich for a country, like ours, that has over the years deforested it's land to make way for food production to tell another that it cannot do the same. Perhaps if we are serious then we should be setting an example, by for instance allowing our moorlands to return to forest. As it stands they currently only serve a limited use as grouse habitat and the associated hunting. They have to be maintained to prevent them returning to woodland so why not let it happen. At least then we cannot be accused of hypocracy when we tell other countries that they need to preserve their forests for the good of the planet.
DonkeyApple said:
Funny though how water shortages are an issue in the SE. Moving employment outwards would solve that issue as well.
Too many people and too much concrete diverting rain water straight down the drain. However moving employment out would require people not to believe the SE, especially London is the centre of the universe. Devil2575 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Funny though how water shortages are an issue in the SE. Moving employment outwards would solve that issue as well.
Too many people and too much concrete diverting rain water straight down the drain. However moving employment out would require people not to believe the SE, especially London is the centre of the universe. 
Plus it's full of Northerners telling everyone it's so much better oop North.
I suspect there are a lot of people who would prefer to be out in the regions but are drawn to London by the employment and not the pleasure of the city itself.
London will always be OK but instead of funneling money from the jobs out to the regions as handouts it makes far more sense to push a chunk of the jobs out and allow those who want to follow to follow and this alleviate lots of the pressures of having an over populated SE.
Devil2575 said:
Whether hose pipe bans are as a result of poor management or not is irrellevant. If there is insufficient water availible to ensure continuity of supply for basic requirements at a specific time then it is right to curtail use regardless. Poor mangement should be addressed as well but you can't avoid having to deal with the imediate problem, water meters or not.
But it's far from irrelevant, it's a symptom of state oversight failing in it's duty - the same state authority you'd be happy to pass even more draconian powers to use to moderate we poor voters' habits.We've had the period of 'the man in Whitehall knows best' we should be embracing self determination and personal choice.
BGarside said:
The attitude on this forum of dismissing all transport options apart from the car out of hand just reflects how totally car-addicted and car-dependent Britain has become and, for me, the constant heavy traffic, traffic noise and deteriorating standards of driving have had a major impact on quality of life, whether I am walking, cycling, driving or even at home.
Now steady on , we can't have people speaking inconvenient truths . It might buckthe stereotype that we are all knuckle dragging wannabe Clarkson retards- apart from me obviously. And your good self it appears.
The Don of Croy said:
Devil2575 said:
Whether hose pipe bans are as a result of poor management or not is irrellevant. If there is insufficient water availible to ensure continuity of supply for basic requirements at a specific time then it is right to curtail use regardless. Poor mangement should be addressed as well but you can't avoid having to deal with the imediate problem, water meters or not.
But it's far from irrelevant, it's a symptom of state oversight failing in it's duty - the same state authority you'd be happy to pass even more draconian powers to use to moderate we poor voters' habits.We've had the period of 'the man in Whitehall knows best' we should be embracing self determination and personal choice.
Lets just imagine for a second that there is a water shortage and because we all have water meters then it shouldn't matter, we can all continue to juse as much as we are willing to pay for. How do you think that will play out? What happens when the water runs out? Does the price rise as levels get lower? Does this mean that people on normal or low incomes may not be able to afford water any more while the affluent can continue to use it to wash their cars as they see fit? Would that concern you?
I don't view the water supplier imposing a ban on certain activities as a draconian power. I view it as a required measure to ensure that people continue to have enough water for the basic requirements. If it was simply left to individuals and the market then people on low incomes would be priced out and face the consequences.
Monty Python said:
Devil2575 said:
The people elected the politicans so it follows that the English have ruined England 
Last time less than 40% of people even bothered to vote, so it's those that voted that are ultimately responsible. Shoot them...shoot them now!So long as the average Briton thinks he is too important to wipe his own arse and demands that all the other taxpayers pay for some lacky to do it then we will have cretinous politicians elected by cretinous people and all doing cretinous things.
My God but we are so good at putting ourselves down; a rich Western democracy - odd that so many people crave to be UK citizens.If you don't vote then you have lost any right to moan. And for all those weeping into their beer because of congestion charges or road tax or whatever first world problem is making you break into self pitying whining then just thank your god you're not hiding from Isis thugs with your traumatised kids , or being scared stupid by ebola or living in a Mumbai slum eh ?
coppice said:
My God but we are so good at putting ourselves down; a rich Western democracy - odd that so many people crave to be UK citizens.If you don't vote then you have lost any right to moan. And for all those weeping into their beer because of congestion charges or road tax or whatever first world problem is making you break into self pitying whining then just thank your god you're not hiding from Isis thugs with your traumatised kids , or being scared stupid by ebola or living in a Mumbai slum eh ?
A very good point.coppice said:
My God but we are so good at putting ourselves down; a rich Western democracy - odd that so many people crave to be UK citizens.If you don't vote then you have lost any right to moan. And for all those weeping into their beer because of congestion charges or road tax or whatever first world problem is making you break into self pitying whining then just thank your god you're not hiding from Isis thugs with your traumatised kids , or being scared stupid by ebola or living in a Mumbai slum eh ?
But what if they introduce congestion charging to Birmingham?BGarside said:
The attitude on this forum of dismissing all transport options apart from the car out of hand just reflects how totally car-addicted and car-dependent Britain has become and, for me, the constant heavy traffic, traffic noise and deteriorating standards of driving have had a major impact on quality of life, whether I am walking, cycling, driving or even at home.
Pah! Stop being Mr "Glass half empty"!Next time you're cycling past constant heavy traffic, just spare a thought for how much faster you're reaching your destination, how much less it's costing you than it is them, and how much more it's doing for your fitness!
Kermit power said:
BGarside said:
The attitude on this forum of dismissing all transport options apart from the car out of hand just reflects how totally car-addicted and car-dependent Britain has become and, for me, the constant heavy traffic, traffic noise and deteriorating standards of driving have had a major impact on quality of life, whether I am walking, cycling, driving or even at home.
Pah! Stop being Mr "Glass half empty"!Next time you're cycling past constant heavy traffic, just spare a thought for how much faster you're reaching your destination, how much less it's costing you than it is them, and how much more it's doing for your fitness!
Mr Gear said:
Kermit power said:
BGarside said:
The attitude on this forum of dismissing all transport options apart from the car out of hand just reflects how totally car-addicted and car-dependent Britain has become and, for me, the constant heavy traffic, traffic noise and deteriorating standards of driving have had a major impact on quality of life, whether I am walking, cycling, driving or even at home.
Pah! Stop being Mr "Glass half empty"!Next time you're cycling past constant heavy traffic, just spare a thought for how much faster you're reaching your destination, how much less it's costing you than it is them, and how much more it's doing for your fitness!
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