"Motorists have ruined England"
Discussion
From a London centric perspective there is some credibility to the article until the guy mentions taxis as public transport. Last time I checked a taxi was a car, most likely a diesel car. It also spends much of it's day idling or driving around looking for a fare, or returning to a favourite spot from a destination effectively empty. The taxi has got to be far worse than the normal car surely? Let's say everyone in London was forced to give up their cars and the taxi fleet increased in size to compensate, the roads would actually end up more congested than before, the air more polluted and noisy etc etc. I'm aware that's not what he was suggesting but when he made his flippant remark about getting a cab across town in august when the roads are quiet the irony surely wasn't lost?
I'm not sure where the £100bn cost of motoring comes into play. Given that almost everything physical within our economy travels by road including us as workers the car must be far more beneficial than costly. Yes I can order my shopping online and have it delivered. Yes I could cycle nearly everywhere. But my incidental spending would be slashed if I didn't drive and have the option of just popping out into the forest for lunch etc. these journeys are only realistically viable by car and measuring their economic value impossible. I'd suggest the £100bn figure has been plucked out of someone's behind.
I'm not sure where the £100bn cost of motoring comes into play. Given that almost everything physical within our economy travels by road including us as workers the car must be far more beneficial than costly. Yes I can order my shopping online and have it delivered. Yes I could cycle nearly everywhere. But my incidental spending would be slashed if I didn't drive and have the option of just popping out into the forest for lunch etc. these journeys are only realistically viable by car and measuring their economic value impossible. I'd suggest the £100bn figure has been plucked out of someone's behind.
el stovey said:
NinjaPower said:
Yeah right, I want to spend an hour just getting to a friends house... and then an hour to get home. And as said above, maybe I don't want to arrive sweaty and probably soaked with rain.
The point is, there are other methods for you to get to you friends house, just that you can't be arsed using them.
Its not really "can't be arsed" though is it? Assuming that public transport is not an option, as it isn't for a huge number of people...
I'm not going to walk, run or cycle 11 miles in the snow or rain to see a friend unless there is some sort of emergency. I think the vast majority of the population would agree with that.
Likewise, although being able to have a drink is one of the main advantages of not driving somewhere, I'm not going to have a few too many beers with "my friend" and cycle, walk or run 11 miles home in the snow or rain.
So without a car, I am somewhat limited to seeing "my friend" on one of the UK's many sunny days, when I have plenty of time to spare. Rather than popping over,in my car, for a cup of tea whenever we feel like it, regardless or time or weather.
It's not can't be arsed, its the practicalities of living outside a large city.
kambites said:
Did you attempt to keep count of the number of times you saw motorists break the highway code? I'd be willing to bet you'd have ended up with a higher number. The standard of driving in London is absolutely appalling.
Interestingly, if the standard were appalling then it wouldn't work. The standard is actually extremely high, hence why 10m people move around without dying every five seconds. I think that the correct word is just 'different'. The skills required for driving in a metropolis are simply different to those required in more conventional environments. It is why Londoners need to be conscious that their assertive/mercenary style is going to be offensive elsewhere and it's why out of towners seem to soil themselves and halt in the middle of badly laid out junctions where the locals have developed their own rule set for negotiating.
J4CKO said:
We were smart enough, as a species to overcome our mobility limitation, but seem to be going backwards a little, such is our slavish reliance and fierce defence of our cars, like a dog with a bone, carrying it everywhere, growling if anyone comes near it, even though nobody actually wants to take that manky bone off us.
Except they do want to take the bone and that bone is the only thing keeping me paying the bills, putting food on my family's table and off the dole. Going backwards is this endless war on the motorist. An approach that goes forwards isn't one that involves fingers in the ears and demanding more money with menaces but actively investing in the car and road infrastructure and bringing them into the 21st century, finding solutions to perceived problems instead of just relentlessly taxing them with no investment.Why does everyone assume that to get from A to B you can only use one form of transport? I am fortunate in that when I want to go into Birmingham, I can just drive a mile or so to the nearest station, park there and catch a (often overcrowded though) train which unlike in London, actually deposits me in the centre of the city. I would use my bike , but there is nowhere at the station to leave it, a problem that often prevents me from using the drive and bike alternative (nowhere to leave it at the other end). So lets have more interchanges where you can park the flexible alternative for the first part of journey from home and the public transport one for the part where there is a decent service. It may even work for London, although I neither know nor care.
SturdyHSV said:
This London place he keeps whinging on about sounds dreadful.
I liked London to visit as a tourist. I didn't really like living there, much prefer living in Aylesbury.So far as getting to London is concerned, I could have walked for 30 mins to the train station or driven to Tring and got the train from there, which is what I did.
WreckedGecko said:
el stovey said:
NinjaPower said:
Yeah right, I want to spend an hour just getting to a friends house... and then an hour to get home. And as said above, maybe I don't want to arrive sweaty and probably soaked with rain.
The point is, there are other methods for you to get to you friends house, just that you can't be arsed using them.
Its not really "can't be arsed" though is it? Assuming that public transport is not an option, as it isn't for a huge number of people...
I'm not going to walk, run or cycle 11 miles in the snow or rain to see a friend unless there is some sort of emergency. I think the vast majority of the population would agree with that.
Likewise, although being able to have a drink is one of the main advantages of not driving somewhere, I'm not going to have a few too many beers with "my friend" and cycle, walk or run 11 miles home in the snow or rain.
So without a car, I am somewhat limited to seeing "my friend" on one of the UK's many sunny days, when I have plenty of time to spare. Rather than popping over,in my car, for a cup of tea whenever we feel like it, regardless or time or weather.
It's not can't be arsed, its the practicalities of living outside a large city.
Personal example, yesterday we had to take our ailing dog for veterinary tests, from our 'in the sticks' home in Norfolk to an 'in the sticks' facility (Animal Health Trust) in Cambs. Appointment was for 09:15, took just under an hour by car. Collected him later in the afternoon (very spaced out!) after awaiting a phone call, time not known when we left him for the tests. Would this have been even remotely possible using public transport, I don't think so. Only serious alternative would have been to hire a taxi for the whole day, how would that have made any difference to the environment? Strap the dog (32kg) into my rucky, and set off at 3am on my pushbike?
Can't be arsed = can't be done. WreckedGecko said:
el stovey said:
NinjaPower said:
Yeah right, I want to spend an hour just getting to a friends house... and then an hour to get home. And as said above, maybe I don't want to arrive sweaty and probably soaked with rain.
The point is, there are other methods for you to get to you friends house, just that you can't be arsed using them.
Its not really "can't be arsed" though is it? Assuming that public transport is not an option, as it isn't for a huge number of people...
I'm not going to walk, run or cycle 11 miles in the snow or rain to see a friend unless there is some sort of emergency. I think the vast majority of the population would agree with that.
Likewise, although being able to have a drink is one of the main advantages of not driving somewhere, I'm not going to have a few too many beers with "my friend" and cycle, walk or run 11 miles home in the snow or rain.
So without a car, I am somewhat limited to seeing "my friend" on one of the UK's many sunny days, when I have plenty of time to spare. Rather than popping over,in my car, for a cup of tea whenever we feel like it, regardless or time or weather.
It's not can't be arsed, its the practicalities of living outside a large city.
So, in that scenario, the car is probably most appropriate but cycling is viable on nice days, ok it takes longer, but for a lot of journeys it isn't that much slower when you take into account traffic and parking, plus I have heard people who are far too busy to waste time on a bike but changing around to get to the gym to exercise, sometimes to sit on an exercise bike !
11 miles is very possible on a bike, even for those who aren't super fit, you go at your own pace, my mate (J4ckos mate on here) is the first to admit he is a little over his fighting weight, but he did 60 odd miles the other day with no real issues, 22 miles with a brew and a rest in the middle is well within most people capability.
Alcohol is a pain, the logistics and expense we have to deal with to get drunk is ridiculous, the arguments between couples as to who is the designated driver, public transport if running is good for that, you dotn notice how unpleasant it is when bladdered, I get the train to go and have a few pints with my brother, works really well.
So he wants a way of paying for road use (road tax) with pay per use premiums for congested roads by perhaps going through gantries that can charge you via a cash card in a box in your car, perhaps 50p normally, increasing to $5 or 6 at peak times??
He then wants to make cars prohibitavely expensive to make people not use them, whilst investing in an ever improving and comprehensive public transport system with options such as trains, buses, affordable taxi's rental bicycles etc??
hmmm ... sounds like Singapore, so why the juddering f&*(&( does that place get gridlocked with only 30% the population of london?? Simple - status - whatever individuals say, people in general are vane sheep that always aspire to something more, so they will still continue to aspire to own a car, and drive it to work etc etc...
human herd nature buggers the plan up every time
He then wants to make cars prohibitavely expensive to make people not use them, whilst investing in an ever improving and comprehensive public transport system with options such as trains, buses, affordable taxi's rental bicycles etc??
hmmm ... sounds like Singapore, so why the juddering f&*(&( does that place get gridlocked with only 30% the population of london?? Simple - status - whatever individuals say, people in general are vane sheep that always aspire to something more, so they will still continue to aspire to own a car, and drive it to work etc etc...
human herd nature buggers the plan up every time
Car dependence has increased massively over the last 30 years or so.
Now almost no-one seems to walk anywhere and the roads are heavily trafficked almost 24/7. Almost every car carries a single occupant and a lot of the journeys people make are less than 5 miles in length and result in them sitting in traffic jams, effective fuel consumption 0mpg when stationary. It's an insanely inefficient method of transporting people, in terms of fuel, time, pollution and road space occupied.
I keep wondering if there will be some kind of eureka moment when people realise the stupidity of trying to drive into cities for commuting or shopping and decide to try an alternative, but it doesn't seem to happen.
Coupled to overpriced trains and buses and lack of cycle facilities I can't see things improving in the UK. British cities will end up like LA with constant endless traffic jams and pollution, noise and congestion everywhere.
I cycle or catch the bus to work and into town, and use my cars for longer trips away at the weekends.
As a keen cyclist the growth in traffic has increasingly spread from main roads to B- and minor roads which has meant that fewer and fewer roads are still safe to cycle on, particularly in urban areas. Increased traffic volumes have gone hand in hand with cyclists being forced off more and more of the road network.
Now almost no-one seems to walk anywhere and the roads are heavily trafficked almost 24/7. Almost every car carries a single occupant and a lot of the journeys people make are less than 5 miles in length and result in them sitting in traffic jams, effective fuel consumption 0mpg when stationary. It's an insanely inefficient method of transporting people, in terms of fuel, time, pollution and road space occupied.
I keep wondering if there will be some kind of eureka moment when people realise the stupidity of trying to drive into cities for commuting or shopping and decide to try an alternative, but it doesn't seem to happen.
Coupled to overpriced trains and buses and lack of cycle facilities I can't see things improving in the UK. British cities will end up like LA with constant endless traffic jams and pollution, noise and congestion everywhere.
I cycle or catch the bus to work and into town, and use my cars for longer trips away at the weekends.
As a keen cyclist the growth in traffic has increasingly spread from main roads to B- and minor roads which has meant that fewer and fewer roads are still safe to cycle on, particularly in urban areas. Increased traffic volumes have gone hand in hand with cyclists being forced off more and more of the road network.
The article is absolutely right, but it fails on one major point - there often is no viable alternative.
Travelling into and around London he is absolutely right to suggest that using the underground is a better / more efficient way to travel. But even when I visit London this system is at breaking point, I'm sure at some point we have all been one of those 'sardines' crammed onto a tube train and denied our personal space. It's demoralising and hateful - probably a lot more stressful than being sat in a traffic jam surrounded by gadgets in a leather reclining seat.
My Fiancee recently passed her test and now has her first car. It's opened up a whole world of freedom for her and has enabled her to get a higher-paid job further afield because she's not limited by the frankly awful public transport system or as far as she could reasonably walk/cycle.
Until there is a viable alternative to the motor car the numbers will continue to increase, and rightly so.
The onus is always on the driver who is continually penalised financially for running a car - which the article already recognises as being an expensive necessity for many. So charging more seems highly ineffective and only the less wealthy really feel it, making the divide in class / wealth ever more apparent.
The future looks bleak, until the day comes where electric, self-driven cars become the majority there will always be problems with 'the motorist'. We have proven that we can't be trusted with the freedom we have and treat driving as though it were a right rather than a privelege. Drivers can't be trusted to follow the laws of the road in the pursuit of adrenaline (which we are all guilty of) and we consistently break speed limits wherever our own safety is not impeded - but happy to point the finger when someone else kills a pedestrian / cyclist / puppy.
Doubt anyone will read that anyway.
Travelling into and around London he is absolutely right to suggest that using the underground is a better / more efficient way to travel. But even when I visit London this system is at breaking point, I'm sure at some point we have all been one of those 'sardines' crammed onto a tube train and denied our personal space. It's demoralising and hateful - probably a lot more stressful than being sat in a traffic jam surrounded by gadgets in a leather reclining seat.
My Fiancee recently passed her test and now has her first car. It's opened up a whole world of freedom for her and has enabled her to get a higher-paid job further afield because she's not limited by the frankly awful public transport system or as far as she could reasonably walk/cycle.
Until there is a viable alternative to the motor car the numbers will continue to increase, and rightly so.
The onus is always on the driver who is continually penalised financially for running a car - which the article already recognises as being an expensive necessity for many. So charging more seems highly ineffective and only the less wealthy really feel it, making the divide in class / wealth ever more apparent.
The future looks bleak, until the day comes where electric, self-driven cars become the majority there will always be problems with 'the motorist'. We have proven that we can't be trusted with the freedom we have and treat driving as though it were a right rather than a privelege. Drivers can't be trusted to follow the laws of the road in the pursuit of adrenaline (which we are all guilty of) and we consistently break speed limits wherever our own safety is not impeded - but happy to point the finger when someone else kills a pedestrian / cyclist / puppy.
Doubt anyone will read that anyway.
He has a point but the infrastructure is so broken now that it will take many millions to fix it. Lack of investment in decent public transport and the refusal to turn large parts of cities in pedestrian zones have proven to grid lock the system. In the UK everyone is so dependent on their cars. I know people who drive to a work place that is less than 5 miles away, it's madness. Until this country embraces better forms of transport there is no solution. The schools are back tomorrow, really looking forward to that. Sure I'll be watching the hordes of 4x4s squabbling over parking spaces whilst I cycle in with my daughter, it's 2 miles to school, neighbors of mine drive these 2 bloody miles despite there being an easy trail to ride. People have ruined England.
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