"Motorists have ruined England"
Discussion
There are two key ways that London is different from the rest of the country. The first is the high density of people and facilities, which means that journeys can be short and services can be high frequency - if you tried to run London bus frequencies on rural bus services, they'd be empty most of the time. Running them infrequently enough that there is anyone on them means that there is probably not a bus for when you want to travel. There are other parts of the country with high enough population densities to make it worthwhile, but the London solution does not and cannot work everywhere.
The second is this.
The second is this.
No motorists haven't ruined the UK, tax has. I used to use the train to commute to Edinburgh from Linlithgow, a 20 minute journey. Pretty mental when a months train pass costs just under £300...
Price us out of public transport, price us out our cars.
I'd bet both my legs the bloke who worte the article owns a car, hypocrisy thy name is Telegraph.
Price us out of public transport, price us out our cars.
I'd bet both my legs the bloke who worte the article owns a car, hypocrisy thy name is Telegraph.
kambites said:
OK let me phrase it like this - the ability to adhere to the highway code is appalling, regardless of vehicle type. Clearly the system which has evolved in place of the UK's usual driving rules vaguely works.
Or maybe the Highway Code is a simplistic set of rules that work well in less densely populated areas but in a metropolis they aren't detailed enough and the city re-interprets for each crappy junction. There are many junctions and routes that have developed their own set of rules outside of the Highway Code so as to work more efficiently and safely. The problem is that when you aren't local then it's a potential mindf
k. It is exactly why some key junctions such as Hammersmith or Hyde Park Corner break down at weekends as there are a larger number of non residents and non commuters on the roads who don't know the mystical rule set for certain junctions.
London roads are like the English language. Anyone can get by with a basic understanding and set of rules but to speak proper English you need to learn a whole load of weird bits that do not adhere to the rule set.
DonkeyApple said:
Or maybe the Highway Code is a simplistic set of rules that work well in less densely populated areas but in a metropolis they aren't detailed enough and the city re-interprets for each crappy junction.
What is annoying is when the traffic planners reinterpret the HC for a junction and paint their reinterpretation on the road, too close to the junction for anyone not familiar with the layout to be in the correct lane in heavy traffic.
otolith said:
What is annoying is when the traffic planners reinterpret the HC for a junction and paint their reinterpretation on the road, too close to the junction for anyone not familiar with the layout to be in the correct lane in heavy traffic.
This grinds my gears - certainly not just a London thing - when you get to a junction and realise you are in the wrong lane. A simple roadsign rather than arrows on the road would solve much confusion!Johnnytheboy said:
Oh another thread hijacked by angry cyclists...
Anyway, back on topic, I'm amused by the author's contention that motorists don't pay to use the roads.
Aye, makes a change from another cyclist-hating thread or cycling thread hijacked by angry motorists, doesn't it?Anyway, back on topic, I'm amused by the author's contention that motorists don't pay to use the roads.
I'm amused by the contention that cyclists don't pay for the roads.
Johnnytheboy said:
otolith said:
What is annoying is when the traffic planners reinterpret the HC for a junction and paint their reinterpretation on the road, too close to the junction for anyone not familiar with the layout to be in the correct lane in heavy traffic.
This grinds my gears - certainly not just a London thing - when you get to a junction and realise you are in the wrong lane. A simple roadsign rather than arrows on the road would solve much confusion!BGarside said:
Car dependence has increased massively over the last 30 years or so.
Now almost no-one seems to walk anywhere and the roads are heavily trafficked almost 24/7. Almost every car carries a single occupant and a lot of the journeys people make are less than 5 miles in length and result in them sitting in traffic jams, effective fuel consumption 0mpg when stationary. It's an insanely inefficient method of transporting people, in terms of fuel, time, pollution and road space occupied.
I keep wondering if there will be some kind of eureka moment when people realise the stupidity of trying to drive into cities for commuting or shopping and decide to try an alternative, but it doesn't seem to happen.
Coupled to overpriced trains and buses and lack of cycle facilities I can't see things improving in the UK. British cities will end up like LA with constant endless traffic jams and pollution, noise and congestion everywhere.
I cycle or catch the bus to work and into town, and use my cars for longer trips away at the weekends.
As a keen cyclist the growth in traffic has increasingly spread from main roads to B- and minor roads which has meant that fewer and fewer roads are still safe to cycle on, particularly in urban areas. Increased traffic volumes have gone hand in hand with cyclists being forced off more and more of the road network.
Have I stumbled on to Transport2000's angry anti-car forum by mistake?Now almost no-one seems to walk anywhere and the roads are heavily trafficked almost 24/7. Almost every car carries a single occupant and a lot of the journeys people make are less than 5 miles in length and result in them sitting in traffic jams, effective fuel consumption 0mpg when stationary. It's an insanely inefficient method of transporting people, in terms of fuel, time, pollution and road space occupied.
I keep wondering if there will be some kind of eureka moment when people realise the stupidity of trying to drive into cities for commuting or shopping and decide to try an alternative, but it doesn't seem to happen.
Coupled to overpriced trains and buses and lack of cycle facilities I can't see things improving in the UK. British cities will end up like LA with constant endless traffic jams and pollution, noise and congestion everywhere.
I cycle or catch the bus to work and into town, and use my cars for longer trips away at the weekends.
As a keen cyclist the growth in traffic has increasingly spread from main roads to B- and minor roads which has meant that fewer and fewer roads are still safe to cycle on, particularly in urban areas. Increased traffic volumes have gone hand in hand with cyclists being forced off more and more of the road network.
Negative Creep said:
paranoid airbag said:
or at least to dress up like the unholy union of an underground worker and a yoga teacher, because if you don't it's your fault, not, you know, the fault of idiots who should never have been given a license. I don't carry armour and a sword around anymore, I shouldn't have to do the equivalent on the roads. That a "civilised" nation stands for that is pretty depressing.
Yeah, what kind of myopic idiot can't see a cyclist in dark clothing with no lights on in the pitch black? They stand out an absolute mile and should in no way take measures to allow them to be seen.But hey, that's just my experience of driving round Cambridge, Oxford, Bristol, Cardiff and the (popular with ramblers, devoid of pavements) Chilterns, day and night, without running over anyone
. Nor, incidentally, has my dad, whose eyesight is definitely pensioner territory and seems to manage just fine.TheAngryDog said:
Riiiiight, so you aren't very good at controlling your own car yet chastise others who shouldn't have been given a licence in the first place... Sounds like you shouldn't have one either.
Well, I think I'm good. But thanks to misters (probably doctors) dunning and kruger, thinking I'm good is terrible grounds for inferring that I'm actually good.It's a whole new meta-cognitive thing
. Though maybe you're right, I am a human with but two eyes, terrible response times, and a stupid amygdala. Who knows.
jamieduff1981 said:
Triumph Man said:
el stovey said:
Oakey said:
Right, because he really wants to be Sweaty McSweatballs when he arrives at his destination
You could cycle slowly? Not every bike journey results in you being sweaty, unless you are really fat and unfit. J4CKO said:
It doesn't rain all the time in the UK, it snows rarely in most of the country.
So, in that scenario, the car is probably most appropriate but cycling is viable on nice days, ok it takes longer, but for a lot of journeys it isn't that much slower when you take into account traffic and parking, plus I have heard people who are far too busy to waste time on a bike but changing around to get to the gym to exercise, sometimes to sit on an exercise bike !
11 miles is very possible on a bike, even for those who aren't super fit, you go at your own pace, my mate (J4ckos mate on here) is the first to admit he is a little over his fighting weight, but he did 60 odd miles the other day with no real issues, 22 miles with a brew and a rest in the middle is well within most people capability.
Alcohol is a pain, the logistics and expense we have to deal with to get drunk is ridiculous, the arguments between couples as to who is the designated driver, public transport if running is good for that, you dotn notice how unpleasant it is when bladdered, I get the train to go and have a few pints with my brother, works really well.
Cycling isn't viable if you value your own time and need to show up in decent attire. Also, 11 miles is a journey I make fortnightly to watch the football. It takes 10 minutes in the car, straight down the motorway. Try and bike it and it would mean a ridiculously longer route including some dual carriageways which I have seen far too many near misses involving cyclists on to even think it would be a reasonable idea.So, in that scenario, the car is probably most appropriate but cycling is viable on nice days, ok it takes longer, but for a lot of journeys it isn't that much slower when you take into account traffic and parking, plus I have heard people who are far too busy to waste time on a bike but changing around to get to the gym to exercise, sometimes to sit on an exercise bike !
11 miles is very possible on a bike, even for those who aren't super fit, you go at your own pace, my mate (J4ckos mate on here) is the first to admit he is a little over his fighting weight, but he did 60 odd miles the other day with no real issues, 22 miles with a brew and a rest in the middle is well within most people capability.
Alcohol is a pain, the logistics and expense we have to deal with to get drunk is ridiculous, the arguments between couples as to who is the designated driver, public transport if running is good for that, you dotn notice how unpleasant it is when bladdered, I get the train to go and have a few pints with my brother, works really well.
Tax the f
k out of the congested roads in London, yes and maybe a few other city centres. But leave the rest of the perfectly operative country alone.Public transport works if you live on a train line and want to go somewhere on that line - but can't go for a beer as trains end too early. Try and get from Bishops Stortford to Finsbury park via Baldock off peak as I had to when my car was garaged and it cost me £46. Completely f
king ridiculous.If you up the price of motoring, railway companies will up their prices too.
yonex said:
Sure I'll be watching the hordes of 4x4s squabbling over parking spaces whilst I cycle in with my daughter, it's 2 miles to school, neighbors of mine drive these 2 bloody miles despite there being an easy trail to ride. People have ruined England.
Maybe, just maybe those hordes have somewhere else they have to go?I mean not everyone has the time to spend an hour and a half[1] on dropping off and picking up their children, stupid things like jobs get in the way.
My eldest starts school this year, the school is 1.3miles away, I'll be driving as I have to then go to work and on the way back I'll be driving because I will have come from work.
This whole sanctimonious holier than you "Cycling works for me so it should for everyone else" really annoys me. Great it works for you, it doesn't work for me or lots of other people.
On the subject of public transport, I couldn't do my job without a car but for the sake of argument if I just had to turn up to the office it would take 1h20m instead of 20-30min.
For ease of considering options I take my time as being "worth" how much I get paid per hour so for public transport to beat the car it would have to be free and petrol fuel would have to have risen to a staggering £9.50 per litre.
[1] Assuming 2miles at an 8mph avg so 15min per journey plus 10min getting changed/ready and 5min waiting.
it is funny this obsession with cyclists being sweaty, to be honest the cyclists in our office are generally not the ones that smell, you dont actually smell fresh sweat, at least not for a fair while, especially if deodorant is used, but most of the cyclists use the showers anyway.
We do get treated to other smells though, those who stink of fag smoke, halitosis, stale sweat, farts (usually me that one to be fair), leeching alcohol and garlic smells etc or just being a bit whiffy.
We do get treated to other smells though, those who stink of fag smoke, halitosis, stale sweat, farts (usually me that one to be fair), leeching alcohol and garlic smells etc or just being a bit whiffy.
Fastdruid said:
Maybe, just maybe those hordes have somewhere else they have to go?
I mean not everyone has the time to spend an hour and a half[1] on dropping off and picking up their children, stupid things like jobs get in the way.
My eldest starts school this year, the school is 1.3miles away, I'll be driving as I have to then go to work and on the way back I'll be driving because I will have come from work.
This whole sanctimonious holier than you "Cycling works for me so it should for everyone else" really annoys me. Great it works for you, it doesn't work for me or lots of other people.
On the subject of public transport, I couldn't do my job without a car but for the sake of argument if I just had to turn up to the office it would take 1h20m instead of 20-30min.
For ease of considering options I take my time as being "worth" how much I get paid per hour so for public transport to beat the car it would have to be free and petrol fuel would have to have risen to a staggering £9.50 per litre.
[1] Assuming 2miles at an 8mph avg so 15min per journey plus 10min getting changed/ready and 5min waiting.
As do I, the main difference is I have adopted more slightly later start times, in practice it is not much as the traffic jam for the short miles to the school gate vs cycling there then onto work isn't that different. An hour and a half for 1.3 miles, more like 6 mins each way.I mean not everyone has the time to spend an hour and a half[1] on dropping off and picking up their children, stupid things like jobs get in the way.
My eldest starts school this year, the school is 1.3miles away, I'll be driving as I have to then go to work and on the way back I'll be driving because I will have come from work.
This whole sanctimonious holier than you "Cycling works for me so it should for everyone else" really annoys me. Great it works for you, it doesn't work for me or lots of other people.
On the subject of public transport, I couldn't do my job without a car but for the sake of argument if I just had to turn up to the office it would take 1h20m instead of 20-30min.
For ease of considering options I take my time as being "worth" how much I get paid per hour so for public transport to beat the car it would have to be free and petrol fuel would have to have risen to a staggering £9.50 per litre.
[1] Assuming 2miles at an 8mph avg so 15min per journey plus 10min getting changed/ready and 5min waiting.
Why does it annoy you, perhaps there's a part of you that knows you could make it work, but no, better to call someone else's choices sanctimonious? I didn't ask you to adopt anything, feel free to sit in traffic with the rest of the muppets, it is no skin off of my nose whatsoever. My office is 10 miles away, it takes 15-20mins in the car. By bike I can do it in 25/28 mins depending on which was the wind is blowing. Therefore a 15 min deficit, I am not important enough that 15 mins would lose me that million dollar deal. If I need to use the car to visit customers then it is easy to leave it on-site. It's funny you mention how much your time is worth, that is the main reason I prefer not to use the car for school runs, more time with the family, more exercise for the kids. That is most important use of my time.
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