Family allow use of fatal crash video for safety campaign.

[mwstewart]

SLOW painted on the road stands for Speed Low Observe Warning, IIRC.

[Janesy B]

As others have said it's a combination of factors, the motorist's mistake might not have been a fatal one had the motorcyclist approached that junction at a more sensible speed and come off at 50/60 rather than 100/110. Too many motorcyclists ride too fast, and they know that motorists can be rubbish/dangerous/incompetent yet some ride around like it's the TT, come on, slow the fk down.

[sweendoggydog]

i don't want to sound want to sound like an arse but he was 40 mph ish over the limit, if it was the over way round there would be no question of who was at fault, ok maybe the car should have checked again or not have started to cross but 97 in a 60, on a bike is just stupid, i spend a lot of my working day driving and i know that most of the people on the roads just drive from a to b and don't pay attention to anyone else, but almost 40 over the limit takes the p!ss the bike was at fault

[djdestiny]

If that biker had of been someone in a car driving at that speed, and over taking on the hatchings just before a junction would people be so quick to defend him?

[VinceFox]

DrDoofenshmirtz said:

VinceFox said:

So, let's share best practice as riders and drivers. What would you do practically, to avoid this?

As a rider, no overtakes near junctions of any sort. Obviously don't speed but i often actively slow down in addition when approaching these things. I'd also add, keep your bubble big, consider repositioning in lane to buy some inches, gently sway front of bike if safe to highlight presence and look for eye contact/wheel direction change.

I've oversimplified my thoughts hugely but hopefully some other riders here will understand them. All the above is based on personal judgement of safety to do so and this of course varies hugely.

I always cover the brake and back off around junctions like that...always, especially if there are cars around.
My rule is: Be surprised if they HAVE seen you, not if they haven't.

Agreed. A vital step in riding education is in fostering this attitude. I'd add that a subsequent one is to be objective about the failings of other road users. Emotional response to poor driving of others takes time and concentration off you.

[sweendoggydog]

djdestiny said:

If that biker had of been someone in a car driving at that speed, and over taking on the hatchings just before a junction would people be so quick to defend him?

exactly the other way round there would be no argument

[ITP]

One of the golden rules is never to be accelerating into a potential hazardous area, for cars or bikes.
Sure, the driver should have seen him but the poor biker is making a very big assumption that all the drivers around him are observant and not distracted by anything. Maybe on the phone, could be an old driver with reduced perceprion of surroundings. What if someone hits the waiting car in the rear and pushes them into your path? So many things happen at junctions.
This applies at all speeds for us bikers be it 30,40,70, never mind 100. There is blame on both sides here, but as a biker if you aren't extra careful around junctions you are taking a bigger chance than a car driver. Sadly this guy was in the wrong place at the wrong time at the wrong speed and paid the ultimate price.

Respect to the family for releasing the video, maybe it should be shown to newly qualified riders and drivers to show how quickly a situation can turn bad.

[cptsideways]

digger the goat said:

Bike travelling at 97mph in a 60 with no lights on.

Driver is penalised for DWCAA..????

I await my lambasting !!

I was thinking the same, others should not be held responsible for a rider arriving that quickly at a junction.


Still if it generates debate then something good may come of it

[Pebbles167]

Having recently recovered from a fairly serious bike accident, It seems all the more real.

I cant remember much of what happened to me due to my injuries but this has brought back all the feelings of uncertainty, pain and fear that I felt for weeks afterwards. Poor fella, RIP.

Hard hitting indeed, enough to nearly bring me to tears.

[VinceFox]

Pebbles167 said:

Having recently recovered from a fairly serious bike accident, It seems all the more real.

I cant remember much of what happened to me due to my injuries but this has brought back all the feelings of uncertainty, pain and fear that I felt for weeks afterwards. Poor fella, RIP.

Hard hitting indeed, enough to nearly bring me to tears.

Sorry to hear about your crash, been there.

[cootuk]

To me it looks like the car driver really should have seen the bike before committing to the turn.
Even seeing something moving fast should have been enough for them to doublecheck.
I think the actual turn itself was very lazy, taking a very wide sweep.

[Disastrous]

Why are people trying to create an argument over fault?

Horrible video with a tragic end and a very powerful message. Both sides could have probably averted the crash one way or another so fault is irrelevant.

This place is ridiculous at times.

A video which ended in someone dying gets posted and the spastics turn up and try and pretend to be high vis accident inspectors. Macabre, IMO.

[VinceFox]

Disastrous said:

Why are people trying to create an argument over fault?

Horrible video with a tragic end and a very powerful message. Both sides could have probably averted the crash one way or another so fault is irrelevant.

This place is ridiculous at times.

A video which ended in someone dying gets posted and the spastics turn up and try and pretend to be high vis accident inspectors. Macabre, IMO.

Then ignore the bad, reinforce the good.

[Pebbles167]

VinceFox said:

Pebbles167 said:

Having recently recovered from a fairly serious bike accident, It seems all the more real.

I cant remember much of what happened to me due to my injuries but this has brought back all the feelings of uncertainty, pain and fear that I felt for weeks afterwards. Poor fella, RIP.

Hard hitting indeed, enough to nearly bring me to tears.

Sorry to hear about your crash, been there.

Thanks man, not nice is it.

Its a shame it often takes a crash to improve ones riding. That was the case for me.

[Mastodon2]

J4CKO said:

It seemed fast, but not almost 100 mph fast.

I got overtaken the other day by a bike, I was going quickly and he overtook me like I was stood still, this was a bend on a dual carriageway, I was quite surprised how fast he was going, the poor guy in this video was making progress but didnt seem to be going mental, just seems sports bikes are so apocalyiptically fast almost a ton is no big deal.

If you think about the gearing of sports bikes, in a 600 the 100mph is "just getting into 3rd gear" if you're changing up at the redline, and there are litre bikes that will exceed 100mph in first without hitting the limiter - one of the R1s hit 104mph in first, iirc. On my GSX-R600 SRAD, 100mph in top gear is just below the powerband, so it's still cruising smoothly, and just a little twist of throttle takes it into the revs where the power really comes in, so it's very easy to ride at those speeds, and it can actually feel quite serene on a sports bike if you're tucked in behind the screen, as there is a minimising effect on the wind noise and buffeting caused by the protective bubble of the fairing, as I found on when I tested it on a private road. A big tourer bike will be even more relaxed again, you can even had the radio on.

Sports bikes, and even the less sporty stuff, are just so much faster than car drivers appreciate, a 20 year old 600cc sports bike will do 0-100 in 7.5 seconds, and given that bikes struggle off the line, even those figures don't tell the tale of how fast bikes really are. You really can be doing 60, put it in the right gear, twist the throttle, tap up into the next gear and give the throttle another twist and you're at 120mph within seconds. As they say, with great power comes great responsibility, and the ridiculous acceleration should be only be deployed after a proper risk assessment has been done. A lapse can end up with you being caught doing "front page of The Sun" speeds, or meeting a tragic end.

My philosophy on the bike is to never get greedy, or frustrated. With all that accelerative ability on tap, it's easy to make up any time lost by slowing to pass a junction, or waiting for a better spot to overtake. And of course, resisting the urge to cruise at inappropriate speeds, just because the bike makes it easy!

[Hitch78]

Davie said:

as a driver in that situation how many of us would look forward, see the approaching car and miss the bike passing it. then look right into the side road knowing there is a car coming but having made a distance judgement, glance back as we started the move over, again noted the approaching car but missed the bike as we turned again to look where we were going and then found a bike on the bonnet.

These were my thoughts also.

[VinceFox]

Mastodon2 said:

If you think about the gearing of sports bikes, in a 600 the 100mph is "just getting into 3rd gear" if you're changing up at the redline, and there are litre bikes that will exceed 100mph in first without hitting the limiter - one of the R1s hit 104mph in first, iirc. On my GSX-R600 SRAD, 100mph in top gear is just below the powerband, so it's still cruising smoothly, and just a little twist of throttle takes it into the revs where the power really comes in, so it's very easy to ride at those speeds, and it can actually feel quite serene on a sports bike if you're tucked in behind the screen, as there is a minimising effect on the wind noise and buffeting caused by the protective bubble of the fairing, as I found on when I tested it on a private road. A big tourer bike will be even more relaxed again, you can even had the radio on.

Sports bikes, and even the less sporty stuff, are just so much faster than car drivers appreciate, a 20 year old 600cc sports bike will do 0-100 in 7.5 seconds, and given that bikes struggle off the line, even those figures don't tell the tale of how fast bikes really are. You really can be doing 60, put it in the right gear, twist the throttle, tap up into the next gear and give the throttle another twist and you're at 120mph within seconds. As they say, with great power comes great responsibility, and the ridiculous acceleration should be only be deployed after a proper risk assessment has been done. A lapse can end up with you being caught doing "front page of The Sun" speeds, or meeting a tragic end.

My philosophy on the bike is to never get greedy, or frustrated. With all that accelerative ability on tap, it's easy to make up any time lost by slowing to pass a junction, or waiting for a better spot to overtake. And of course, resisting the urge to cruise at inappropriate speeds, just because the bike makes it easy!

Well put, particularly the last paragraph.

[Hitch78]

mwstewart said:

Driller said:

If a driver of any vehicle is incapable of judging the speed of an oncoming vehicle whether it's 1mph or light speed, he shouldn't driving IMO.

Actually, that's a gap in our driving test that could be addressed, and would be easy to assess on a computer application as part of the theory test.

If there was a dashcam from the car the assesment of who's capability was in question would be much easier to call. I would guess, like the post I commented on above, that the driver was not aware of the bike until it went through the car and if you think about it their thought process probably went:

1) Look up road, see car in lane, assess speed, decide there is time to move

2) Look at position moving into, ensure clear, decide to move

3) Commence mo...BANG.

The driver seemingly failed to run a second glance up the road which may have been why they were charged, but their initial assesment would have been based on the car, not the potential that another vehicle might overtake the car at 50% above the speed limit.

The whole thing is very sad and given that there is scientific data supporting the theory that drivers don't recognise bikes as quickly or as often as they recognise cars it has to be on riders to ride with caution to survive and it is on manufacturers, legislators and riders to make bikes much more visible - to the extent that they should probably only come in high-vis colours and you should have to wear high-vis on them.

I would love a bike and toy with the idea every year, but whilst I trust my ability I don't trust other road users enough to take the risk.

[Chicane-UK]

Not going to impart my opinions on the circumstances in the video, and the wider biking vs motoring debate as I do certainly have my feelings there, but just rather comment on the video.

As has been said, tough watch - very touch watch. Really a heart stopping moment as you see the car cross in front of him and you hear his reaction. Seems he was quite unlucky for the accident to kill him despite the speed - looks like he was thrown completely clear and I guess depending on how he landed, it could have been a very different outcome.

Really quite a sobering watch for both bikers and motorists.

[bennyboysvuk]

Driller said:

I like the gentle weaving idea.

I often (seriously) wonder if jumping up off the bike just before the moment of impact might help save your life instead of being rag dolled/somersaulted by the bottom half of you being rapidly slowed by the impact whilst the rest of you continues forwards.

I agree with both thoughts here. Weaving does make you more visible. And as for leaping off, I had this thought years ago when a car pulled straight across a dual carriageway in front of me. Fortunately, I went ahead of the car by inches, but it certainly sticks out in my memory as the closest I've come to a serious accident.