RE: Jaguar XE - full details
Discussion
danp said:
kambites said:
The 130i is a dreary hatchback with a particularly good engine. 
I'd have thought that engine plus rwd would make it less dreary than any other comparable 5 door hatch? (Genuine question as considering one for my next car. What would you have?)The reason I bought it was that being RWD it meant it had proper leg room for me. I have always avoided hatchbacks because the transverse layout means the pedals are too far into the cabin to give a nice or sometimes (French cars) usable seating position.
Is the RWD superior to fwd? No. It's still a car dominated by its front wheels and other fwd cars are just as fast, built the same, cost less.
But the engine.
the 3 litre straight six simply makes it a superior car to all others in its class. It really is as simple as that. It doesn't trump all those four pots out there, they simply aren't there to compete. If the 1 series doesn't have the 6 pot then it's no different to any of the other generic, built to a price, all expense spared, utility transports. Just put a dress on and learn to type 80 words a minute.
Get a 130 if you need a hatchback simply because whatever anyone says about RWD, fwd, AWD, wheels, sound systems, leather, whatever, at hatchback level this engine trumps all pointless marketing gimmicks used to try and differentiate identical products.
Very well said. The engine does make the car as it does in my little fleet of wagons.
I understand the reasons behind engine selection but there are so many cars out there with the 'wrong engine' in them (520d, 328i, Alfa 4C, E220, etc) that it makes the future second hand market miserable!
I still smile every time I get in my old E39 and Z4 because of the engine. They may not be the most powerful anymore but they have a woderful sound, smoothness and, above all, character that modern engines can only dream of.
I understand the reasons behind engine selection but there are so many cars out there with the 'wrong engine' in them (520d, 328i, Alfa 4C, E220, etc) that it makes the future second hand market miserable!
I still smile every time I get in my old E39 and Z4 because of the engine. They may not be the most powerful anymore but they have a woderful sound, smoothness and, above all, character that modern engines can only dream of.
danp said:
kambites said:
The 130i is a dreary hatchback with a particularly good engine.
I'd have thought that engine plus rwd would make it less dreary than any other comparable 5 door hatch? (Genuine question as considering one for my next car. What would you have?)Edited by RobM77 on Saturday 13th September 09:53
Indeed, the 1-series may be impractical, expensive and monstrously ugly but as mid-sized hatchbacks go it's amongst the more interesting, whatever engine is in it. Would I buy a diesel one? God no, not if I could avoid it, but if I had to drive a diesel hatchback, I'd probably be slightly less miserable in a 1-series than anything else.
kambites said:
Indeed, the 1-series may be impractical, expensive and monstrously ugly but as mid-sized hatchbacks go it's amongst the more interesting, whatever engine is in it. Would I buy a diesel one? God no, not if I could avoid it, but if I had to drive a diesel hatchback, I'd probably be slightly less miserable in a 1-series than anything else.
But if your life was that bad then you'd just buy the cheapest diesel hatchback. It's a strange world where people are so poor that they have to buy a small diesel car but then go and buy the most expensive diesel s
tbox. 
DonkeyApple said:
It's a strange world where people are so poor that they have to buy a small diesel car but then go and buy the most expensive diesel stbox.
Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you're being very obtuse if you can't see any potential reason why people would choose something like a 118/120d over another diesel hatch.tbox. Has it ever crossed your mind that some people don't give a flying f
k about the things like immediate throttle response, linear power delivery and don't care that diesels are a bit more noisy or sound a bit st?All most people want is a car to go from A to B with decent economy, reliability and which is generally a reasonably refined and practical car. When you think of it in that sense, you can see why people go for cars like a 1er.
Just because they don't suit your needs, you shouldn't be so blinded as to why they might suit others.
They aren't for me (heck, I bought a petrol V8) but I can understand and appreciate WHY some might buy them.
I won't go into the reasons why I chose a diesel 3 series, my first ever diesel (my last car was a Z4 Coupé with the gorgeous N52 3L S6), because it always causes an argument on PH, but what I will say is that after two years with one I can fully understand why Joe Public would prefer a diesel engine to a petrol engine. The horrible dieselly noise is only really audible below about 20mph, a speed I rarely drop below (I live in the country and commute along country lanes and dual carriageways), and the lack of throttle response is only really noticeable if you've been off the throttle for a while and suddenly want a burst of power, for example slowing gradually for a roundabout and then flooring it when you see a gap - at all other times it's not an issue, in fact the top of the pedal response is instant, whereas most modern petrol engines have quite a nasty lag from 0% throttle (this was my reason for buying, so there you go, I said it, let the ignorant arguing continue). Whilst I'm a petrolhead through and through, and all other things being equal will always want a petrol engine, my reasoning for that is pure engineering geekiness and I have no idea why an ordinary person would choose one over a diesel to be honest, because my diesel consistently does over 50mpg in all situations and therefore costs me about £3500 in fuel a year (30k miles @ 53mpg) rather than £5000 (30k miles @ 35mpg). The other BMW I considered was the E92 M3 and that would be £7000 a year in fuel! My wife has a petrol engine car (Civic Type R), because she loves the sound the engine makes and the nature of the response; does Joe Public care about that? I doubt it! Then again, does Joe Public care about 50:50 weight distribution? I doubt that either, so the comment above about Joe Public going for, let's say a 118d over a Golf GTi is mystifying, yes.
E65Ross said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's a strange world where people are so poor that they have to buy a small diesel car but then go and buy the most expensive diesel stbox.
Whilst I agree with your sentiments, you're being very obtuse if you can't see any potential reason why people would choose something like a 118/120d over another diesel hatch.tbox. Has it ever crossed your mind that some people don't give a flying f
k about the things like immediate throttle response, linear power delivery and don't care that diesels are a bit more noisy or sound a bit st?All most people want is a car to go from A to B with decent economy, reliability and which is generally a reasonably refined and practical car. When you think of it in that sense, you can see why people go for cars like a 1er.
Just because they don't suit your needs, you shouldn't be so blinded as to why they might suit others.
They aren't for me (heck, I bought a petrol V8) but I can understand and appreciate WHY some might buy them.
Wanting economy and paying for a badge is the comedy element. As you say, most people want to get from A to B cheaply. But most people aren't very good at maths I take it?
wemorgan said:
Who are these poor people? The uk/europe/asia are rich, spending money all over the place on consumables. It's why JLR are able to launch so many expensive cars that sell like hot cakes.
I've no idea either. They can't be that poor if they can spend so much money trying to save money. Mr2Mike said:
Max_Torque said:
Look at the window aperture, the black highline, the way the rear wheels sit in the arches, the short high tail, the 1.5deg nose down rake, all classic M3 signatures that JLR have sensibly copied for their car!
There is an obvious resemblance IMO. A lot of PHers seem to lack acuity when comparing cars, as thoroughly proved in another thread.DonkeyApple said:
Er, never mentioned throttle response or linear power deliveries. No idea what you are going on about. Again.
Wanting economy and paying for a badge is the comedy element. As you say, most people want to get from A to B cheaply. But most people aren't very good at maths I take it?
You need to stop seeing the world through your eyes. Not everyone, in fact I'd guess very few people, buy a BMW for the badge. BMW have such a terrible image in the UK I doubt that's remotely true. The diesel thing might be down to BiK tax and other company car reasons, or it might be related to the reasons I got fed up with modern petrol engines and switched to diesel. Either way, you should try and think a bit more broadly! A good analogy is Apple. Lots of people go on about 'Apple fanboys' and people buying Apple for the label etc, but I noticed at the party I was at tonight virtually everyone had iPhones - I bet 99.99% of people just like the ease of use and compact size and couldn't care a less who made their phone.Wanting economy and paying for a badge is the comedy element. As you say, most people want to get from A to B cheaply. But most people aren't very good at maths I take it?
Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 14th September 00:25
RobM77 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
RobM77 said:
The 118d gets slated on her constantly as a dreary hatchback, but it has exactly the same ride, handling and steering as the 130i!
The 4 pot diesel engine is what makes it dreary though because I have experienced the 4 pot diesel engine in my old 520d and its pretty much the worst engine I have ever experienced by a very large margin and the engine in my 330i is one of the best I have experienced so in that regard they are certainly poles apart. And an engines performance has a big impact on how a car handles as well, the different engines totally define the driving experience between the two as anyone who has driven the same model of car with a high performance petrol and bottom of the range diesel will tell you !!
DonkeyApple said:
Is the RWD superior to fwd? No. It's still a car dominated by its front wheels and other fwd cars are just as fast, built the same, cost less.
On a low powered diesel I'd agree RWD is hardly necessary but on a car with more HP like the 3 litre version not having all that power scrabbling through the front wheels is definitely better IMO I've never defined a car by the level of power it has, or the spec level.
To me a 116i and a 130i are basically very similar cars.
One is faster and more refined, sure, but they are both quick enough that you need to hold back not to get in legal trouble. This idea that only the powerful version will handle properly is rubbish, touted by those who are not really interested in(or paying much attention to) handling. It's ok to never pay much attention to handling, most people don't, just don't imagine that your opinion on the matter has much weight. I don't really enjoy scotch whiskey, yet I don't blather on that there is no difference between brands or mixes, that it is all a marketing scam for the gullible/image obsessed. I don't repeat what I read in whiskey lovers magazine as gospel. I make my own mind up. This is the opposite of being brand obsessed.
A classic example of this. Nissan launch 350z, car magazines go crazy with praise. I drive it. In comparison to a lowly BMW E36 318is it is not very good, for how I like to drive. Am I wrong? People tell me the power of the Nissan's v6 is glorious, the handling is classic rwd coupe. I just think I'd prefer a poverty spec 318is. Yes, I know I'm a PH driving god, but it just wasn't as composed as the "crap 4 cylinder" BMW for how and where I drive.
To me a 116i and a 130i are basically very similar cars.
One is faster and more refined, sure, but they are both quick enough that you need to hold back not to get in legal trouble. This idea that only the powerful version will handle properly is rubbish, touted by those who are not really interested in(or paying much attention to) handling. It's ok to never pay much attention to handling, most people don't, just don't imagine that your opinion on the matter has much weight. I don't really enjoy scotch whiskey, yet I don't blather on that there is no difference between brands or mixes, that it is all a marketing scam for the gullible/image obsessed. I don't repeat what I read in whiskey lovers magazine as gospel. I make my own mind up. This is the opposite of being brand obsessed.
A classic example of this. Nissan launch 350z, car magazines go crazy with praise. I drive it. In comparison to a lowly BMW E36 318is it is not very good, for how I like to drive. Am I wrong? People tell me the power of the Nissan's v6 is glorious, the handling is classic rwd coupe. I just think I'd prefer a poverty spec 318is. Yes, I know I'm a PH driving god, but it just wasn't as composed as the "crap 4 cylinder" BMW for how and where I drive.
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Er, never mentioned throttle response or linear power deliveries. No idea what you are going on about. Again.
Wanting economy and paying for a badge is the comedy element. As you say, most people want to get from A to B cheaply. But most people aren't very good at maths I take it?
You need to stop seeing the world through your eyes. Not everyone, in fact I'd guess very few people, buy a BMW for the badge. BMW have such a terrible image in the UK I doubt that's remotely true. The diesel thing might be down to BiK tax and other company car reasons, or it might be related to the reasons I got fed up with modern petrol engines and switched to diesel. Either way, you should try and think a bit more broadly! A good analogy is Apple. Lots of people go on about 'Apple fanboys' and people buying Apple for the label etc, but I noticed at the party I was at tonight virtually everyone had iPhones - I bet 99.99% of people just like the ease of use and compact size and couldn't care a less who made their phone.Wanting economy and paying for a badge is the comedy element. As you say, most people want to get from A to B cheaply. But most people aren't very good at maths I take it?
Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 14th September 00:25
It's about the stupidity of spending a large sum of money to save a small sum of money. Ie, why would someone ever buy a base model BMW? What is the logic? Are all these people covering such vast annual mileages that the tax savings outweigh the purchase premium?
or is it all about the RWD? RobM77 said:
Not everyone, in fact I'd guess very few people, buy a BMW for the badge.
I bet 99.99% of people just like the ease of use and compact size and couldn't care a less who made their phone.
Hmmm… so people buy BMW's cos' they're cheap to run and despite the terrible image. Having some trouble swallowing that one.I bet 99.99% of people just like the ease of use and compact size and couldn't care a less who made their phone.
Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 14th September 00:25
And the fact that 99% of people have Apples is only a tribute to their marketing, not to their intrinsic value. I have several friends who openly admit that they bought their iPhone because of the design, and that they have absolutely no use of 90% of its apps etc.
This has more to do with consumers' sheep instinct than any objective facts.
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