RE: Jaguar XE - full details
Discussion
XJ Flyer said:
'Image' in this case obviously being built on the idea of expected Jaguar type levels of performance and handling behind the badge not Mondeo type performance and handling.IE it is the product which defines the badge not vice versa.
It's obviously both. The baby Jag didn't fail purely because of a harsh media pushing the Ford link. It failed because not enough potential customers wanted to be associated with the Jaguar brand at that time. It's brand perception was ghastly. It was basically a dirty or drunk old man's car. What exactly did Jaguar stand for back then? Well it wasn't sport, performance, success or style. It was, to be blunt, rolling out of the Golf course car park, half cut and with the female staff happy to see you gone. They've invested an awful lot of time and money in disposing of that image and the customers that had crept into the brand like a disease and in my book they have laid it to bed.
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
ORD said:
I can't say I agree re the 1 series. Badge and badge alone explains the success of that car. Those who would know, let alone appreciate, its RWD characteristics are in a tiny majority and probably wouldn't buy a new 1 series anyway. Put that to one side and you are left with a car that, apart from being more expensive and less spacious, is pretty hard to distinguish from any other shopping car.
For what it's worth, I don't think the 1 series handles materially better than a Golf or Mazda 3. Upsides and downsides, but it really isn't streets ahead in handling terms.
I agree completely. Ask most 1 series drivers which wheels drive the car and most would probably point to the steering wheel. Ask them why they bought the car and few are going to answer 'performance and handling'. For what it's worth, I don't think the 1 series handles materially better than a Golf or Mazda 3. Upsides and downsides, but it really isn't streets ahead in handling terms.
It's about the best badge for lowest easy monthly installments.
And hopefully, the same will be true for the basic XE, which to me seems infinitely more asperational than a 1 or 3 series in comparable spec.
DonkeyApple said:
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
ORD said:
I can't say I agree re the 1 series. Badge and badge alone explains the success of that car. Those who would know, let alone appreciate, its RWD characteristics are in a tiny majority and probably wouldn't buy a new 1 series anyway. Put that to one side and you are left with a car that, apart from being more expensive and less spacious, is pretty hard to distinguish from any other shopping car.
For what it's worth, I don't think the 1 series handles materially better than a Golf or Mazda 3. Upsides and downsides, but it really isn't streets ahead in handling terms.
I agree completely. Ask most 1 series drivers which wheels drive the car and most would probably point to the steering wheel. Ask them why they bought the car and few are going to answer 'performance and handling'. For what it's worth, I don't think the 1 series handles materially better than a Golf or Mazda 3. Upsides and downsides, but it really isn't streets ahead in handling terms.
It's about the best badge for lowest easy monthly installments.
And hopefully, the same will be true for the basic XE, which to me seems infinitely more asperational than a 1 or 3 series in comparable spec.
RobM77 said:
Any evidence for that rather extraordinary claim?...
I rather suspect that most of the sort of people who buy a new 1-series would never have bothered to even try it if it had a Kia badge on it. Whether people actually buy cars purely based on the badge or not, it certainly affects what they shortlist. What proportion of 1-series buyers do you think test-drove a C'eed? DonkeyApple said:
Yup. And stick a KIA badge on the back of their car and ask them the same question and see what the answer is then.
I always think of this, imagine if KIA released something that looked like the X1 or the i3, imagine the hate these cars would receive for the way they look, and I think sales figures would be absolutely dreadful.Like it or not, badge does a lot to a lot of people. The germans have, deservedly or not, build up a very solid reputation of having the most reliable and best build cars according to a lot of people. Even if every survey imaginable in the past 10 years has shown that this is far from the truth. I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here Opel (=Vauxhall) has started a big campaign on the brand being "German", much to the hate of the Audi and BMW dealers in the area as, of course, they wouldn't want to be associated with a brand like Opel
. Pretty funny actually.(1) Someone who doesn't know which wheels drive their car and isn't a teenage scoundrel ("a typical driver")is extremely unlikely to corner fast enough to feel any difference between a RWD and FWD car.
(2) If a typical driver did take a corner a bit fast, he or she would associate the characteristics of a FWD (nose tucking in on lift off or braking) with "good" handling (good meaning easy and safe).
It is pretty obvious that any RWD characteristics that the 1 series has (which it pretty much doesn't except when really pushed) have nothing to do with why it sells to the typical driver.
While the typical driver might say that it drives well, they would say the same thing about any car of which they were proud. Have you ever heard anyone other than a car enthusiast say "I like my car but I don't like the way it handles?". To most people "I like it" and "It drives well" are the same thing. Watch that Skoda advert that always comes up at the start of Autocar reviews - some old chap banging on about how well the car handles and rides while the footage shows it leaning like a van as it goes round a corner and about to tip into "safety understeer". It handles like a box of apples on wheels, but he likes it, so he says it handles well.
(2) If a typical driver did take a corner a bit fast, he or she would associate the characteristics of a FWD (nose tucking in on lift off or braking) with "good" handling (good meaning easy and safe).
It is pretty obvious that any RWD characteristics that the 1 series has (which it pretty much doesn't except when really pushed) have nothing to do with why it sells to the typical driver.
While the typical driver might say that it drives well, they would say the same thing about any car of which they were proud. Have you ever heard anyone other than a car enthusiast say "I like my car but I don't like the way it handles?". To most people "I like it" and "It drives well" are the same thing. Watch that Skoda advert that always comes up at the start of Autocar reviews - some old chap banging on about how well the car handles and rides while the footage shows it leaning like a van as it goes round a corner and about to tip into "safety understeer". It handles like a box of apples on wheels, but he likes it, so he says it handles well.
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
RobM77 said:
DonkeyApple said:
ORD said:
I can't say I agree re the 1 series. Badge and badge alone explains the success of that car. Those who would know, let alone appreciate, its RWD characteristics are in a tiny majority and probably wouldn't buy a new 1 series anyway. Put that to one side and you are left with a car that, apart from being more expensive and less spacious, is pretty hard to distinguish from any other shopping car.
For what it's worth, I don't think the 1 series handles materially better than a Golf or Mazda 3. Upsides and downsides, but it really isn't streets ahead in handling terms.
I agree completely. Ask most 1 series drivers which wheels drive the car and most would probably point to the steering wheel. Ask them why they bought the car and few are going to answer 'performance and handling'. For what it's worth, I don't think the 1 series handles materially better than a Golf or Mazda 3. Upsides and downsides, but it really isn't streets ahead in handling terms.
It's about the best badge for lowest easy monthly installments.
And hopefully, the same will be true for the basic XE, which to me seems infinitely more asperational than a 1 or 3 series in comparable spec.
ZesPak said:
DonkeyApple said:
Yup. And stick a KIA badge on the back of their car and ask them the same question and see what the answer is then.
I always think of this, imagine if KIA released something that looked like the X1 or the i3, imagine the hate these cars would receive for the way they look, and I think sales figures would be absolutely dreadful.Like it or not, badge does a lot to a lot of people. The germans have, deservedly or not, build up a very solid reputation of having the most reliable and best build cars according to a lot of people. Even if every survey imaginable in the past 10 years has shown that this is far from the truth. I don't know how it is in the UK, but over here Opel (=Vauxhall) has started a big campaign on the brand being "German", much to the hate of the Audi and BMW dealers in the area as, of course, they wouldn't want to be associated with a brand like Opel
. Pretty funny actually.Roll on the Jaguar SUV. I can't wait to see that replacing Macans etc.
ORD said:
(1) Someone who doesn't know which wheels drive their car and isn't a teenage scoundrel ("a typical driver")is extremely unlikely to corner fast enough to feel any difference between a RWD and FWD car.
(2) If a typical driver did take a corner a bit fast, he or she would associate the characteristics of a FWD (nose tucking in on lift off or braking) with "good" handling (good meaning easy and safe).
It is pretty obvious that any RWD characteristics that the 1 series has (which it pretty much doesn't except when really pushed) have nothing to do with why it sells to the typical driver.
While the typical driver might say that it drives well, they would say the same thing about any car of which they were proud. Have you ever heard anyone other than a car enthusiast say "I like my car but I don't like the way it handles?". To most people "I like it" and "It drives well" are the same thing. Watch that Skoda advert that always comes up at the start of Autocar reviews - some old chap banging on about how well the car handles and rides while the footage shows it leaning like a van as it goes round a corner and about to tip into "safety understeer". It handles like a box of apples on wheels, but he likes it, so he says it handles well.
Yup. I'm not sure all the people happy to pay a premium for a MINI or 500 are doing so based in handling. It's done because they like the brand and feel the brand fits with the life they are living. (2) If a typical driver did take a corner a bit fast, he or she would associate the characteristics of a FWD (nose tucking in on lift off or braking) with "good" handling (good meaning easy and safe).
It is pretty obvious that any RWD characteristics that the 1 series has (which it pretty much doesn't except when really pushed) have nothing to do with why it sells to the typical driver.
While the typical driver might say that it drives well, they would say the same thing about any car of which they were proud. Have you ever heard anyone other than a car enthusiast say "I like my car but I don't like the way it handles?". To most people "I like it" and "It drives well" are the same thing. Watch that Skoda advert that always comes up at the start of Autocar reviews - some old chap banging on about how well the car handles and rides while the footage shows it leaning like a van as it goes round a corner and about to tip into "safety understeer". It handles like a box of apples on wheels, but he likes it, so he says it handles well.
DonkeyApple said:
It's obviously both. The baby Jag didn't fail purely because of a harsh media pushing the Ford link. It failed because not enough potential customers wanted to be associated with the Jaguar brand at that time. It's brand perception was ghastly. It was basically a dirty or drunk old man's car. What exactly did Jaguar stand for back then? Well it wasn't sport, performance, success or style. It was, to be blunt, rolling out of the Golf course car park, half cut and with the female staff happy to see you gone.
The real question is: where did those people go?<cough>Aston?</cough>
DonkeyApple said:
Denying the power of branding is madness. With the XE, however good it is, Jaguar have had to work incredibly hard to rebuild their perceived brand over the last decade. Without that work and the success of doing so the XE would never have gotten the green light. They still have the hurdle of 'not German so not as reliable' and we just have to cross our fingers that they demolish that with this car.
Roll on the Jaguar SUV. I can't wait to see that replacing Macans etc.
Tbh, they got rid of that reputation about halfway through the production run of the X and S types.Roll on the Jaguar SUV. I can't wait to see that replacing Macans etc.
Kawasicki said:
ORD said:
(2) If a typical driver did take a corner a bit fast, he or she would associate the characteristics of a FWD (nose tucking in on lift off or braking) with "good" handling (good meaning easy and safe).
what does a rwd car do when you when you lift off or brake?At lowish speeds, and contrary to PH myth, not a lot happens if you brake or lift off mid-corner in the modern RWD cars that I have driven, but they don't tend to tuck in in the reassuring way that a shopping car does.
DonkeyApple said:
XJ Flyer said:
'Image' in this case obviously being built on the idea of expected Jaguar type levels of performance and handling behind the badge not Mondeo type performance and handling.IE it is the product which defines the badge not vice versa.
It's obviously both. The baby Jag didn't fail purely because of a harsh media pushing the Ford link. It failed because not enough potential customers wanted to be associated with the Jaguar brand at that time. It's brand perception was ghastly. It was basically a dirty or drunk old man's car. What exactly did Jaguar stand for back then? Well it wasn't sport, performance, success or style. It was, to be blunt, rolling out of the Golf course car park, half cut and with the female staff happy to see you gone. trashbat said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's obviously both. The baby Jag didn't fail purely because of a harsh media pushing the Ford link. It failed because not enough potential customers wanted to be associated with the Jaguar brand at that time. It's brand perception was ghastly. It was basically a dirty or drunk old man's car. What exactly did Jaguar stand for back then? Well it wasn't sport, performance, success or style. It was, to be blunt, rolling out of the Golf course car park, half cut and with the female staff happy to see you gone.
The real question is: where did those people go?<cough>Aston?</cough>
It was a role that Jags from that period have always shared with Mercedes, so I suspect Merc benefited from an uplift in sad old man , executive saloon sales.
Fittster said:
DonkeyApple said:
XJ Flyer said:
'Image' in this case obviously being built on the idea of expected Jaguar type levels of performance and handling behind the badge not Mondeo type performance and handling.IE it is the product which defines the badge not vice versa.
It's obviously both. The baby Jag didn't fail purely because of a harsh media pushing the Ford link. It failed because not enough potential customers wanted to be associated with the Jaguar brand at that time. It's brand perception was ghastly. It was basically a dirty or drunk old man's car. What exactly did Jaguar stand for back then? Well it wasn't sport, performance, success or style. It was, to be blunt, rolling out of the Golf course car park, half cut and with the female staff happy to see you gone. stuart-b said:
The last X pages are all about the poxy 1 series and diesel hatchbacks. Can we please discuss the XE?
It's all down to which one Clarkson says is a better steer. It's quite difficult to work it out for oneself so we rely on doing what a series of journalists tell us to do. I guess the key lies in whether Jaguar supply enough champagne fuelled, international whoring weekends. ORD said:
Kawasicki said:
ORD said:
(2) If a typical driver did take a corner a bit fast, he or she would associate the characteristics of a FWD (nose tucking in on lift off or braking) with "good" handling (good meaning easy and safe).
what does a rwd car do when you when you lift off or brake?At lowish speeds, and contrary to PH myth, not a lot happens if you brake or lift off mid-corner in the modern RWD cars that I have driven, but they don't tend to tuck in in the reassuring way that a shopping car does.
FWD cars tend to oversteer more during light mid corner braking.
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