RE: BRM V16: Time For Tea?

[thiscocks]

soad said:

dvs_dave said:

So what was the rationale for producing such a complex yet tiny capacity engine? The frictional losses alone must have been significant with all those moving parts.

I would like to know the answer too. Anyone?

From Raymond Mays BRM book: ' On the broad basis of the more cylinders the more power, Peter (berthon) had set out originally with a twelve cylinder conception and ended with sixteen, each cylinder smaller than that of an Austin Seven. They were arranged in two blocks of eight apiece with two overhead camshafts to each block. The stroke being slightly less than the bore, very high crankshaft speeds could be used without the piston velocity becoming excessive.'

[daytona365]

So which car used that 247 litre job then ?...Must have been something American.

Edited by daytona365 on Tuesday 16th September 00:10

[gixxer]

sideways man said:

Stirling Moss hated the car,probably because it had no finesse and didn't suit his delicate style. You couldn't balance it on the throttle,because of the peaky power delivery. Juan Manuel Fangio, however,loved the car. I always knew the man had good taste.

Stirling Moss was a smart cookie, once he found out how bad the car was, he avoided it.
The one time he did drive it in a race he retired after a couple laps from overheating.
I've read he disliked it because the trailing arm front suspension, similar to an old VW beetle) allowed the front wheels to "wobble sideways" and "patter". The steering had so much slop that he had to "lean" on it with several inches of movement at the steering rim before it would even start to turn the front wheels at speed. He even measured the play at the steering wheel at a standstill while testing at Monza, and he got 5-7 inches of play before the wheels started to turn.
Needless to say the handling sucked. He described that as well in detail, and it sounded to me like it was, well, sucky.
He thought the power band was useless and he said it was like driving a regular car in London while being forced to keep it between 6 and 7K RPM. The power band was extremely peaky. Below 6,000 RPM in the BRM, if you blipped the throttle, it would just quit.
The engine misfires were mostly caused by engine coolant leaking past the head gasket, as the cylinder sleeve would be pushed down against a flexible sealing O-ring at the base of the block while under boost.
Moss even made a detailed written report to the BRM staff of the good and bad aspects of the car, power band, ergonomics, handling, but it appears his comments weren't taken seriously (or the problems couldn't be fixed).

[kev b]

I was lucky enough to attend the first BRM celebration in Bourne over a decade ago.

I stood at the other end of the route from the paddock as the cars were paraded spiritedly through the streets. When a V16 was started and warmed through in the "pits" before its drive the sound was incredible, completely drowning out everything else, although it must have been over half a mile away.

As it was driven along the course the sound became more and more intense until it reached us, howling, shrieking, popping and banging, simply the most fantastic noise I had ever heard.

I've seen the 16cyl cars a few more times since then and there is nothing to compare with the orchestra of noise produced by these engines, they might have been flops as racing cars but as a spectacle they take pole position.

[skeggysteve]

dvs_dave said:

So what was the rationale for producing such a complex yet tiny capacity engine? ...

Others have given you the engineering answer I'll give you the real answer:

Because it was BRM!
Who, as the commentators said, then went to produce a H16 engine.

But:

kev b said:

.... there is nothing to compare with the orchestra of noise produced by these engines, they might have been flops as racing cars but as a spectacle they take pole position.

Many years ago I worked as a mechanic in professional motor racing, one day we were testing at Donington.
There we were stood on the pit wall, well used to the sound of race cars, and the museum bump started the V16 down the pit lane behind us.
Everyone on the pit wall turned round and ignored 'our' cars out on track.

[threespires]

Great to read some of the stories above. The BRM sounded wonderful and was a treat to see.

[sideways man]

Who was the guy doing the demonstration runs at goodwood?
I realise he was taking it slow,but would be great to hear his thoughts.

More on the 'handling'.
Although built in 1947, the suspension design was very much pre-war. Poor road conditions even on racetracks,coupled with poor tyre life,meant the modern drift it through the corner style had not then been invented. Power down the straight was seen as important and handling/corner speed was a very distant second place. With vertical wheels grip was limited, and a recirculating ball steering box resulted in sloppy steering. If anyone wants to experience this,it's the same as an old land rover defender!

It wasn't all low tech. Oleo-Pneumatic struts were used in place of springs/dampers and disc brakes were fitted. Much effort was put into a low center of gravity.
And these cars were built to the highest possible standard,to showcase British Engineering which was the best in the world at the time.

Edit; this has some background detail

http://8w.forix.com/brmp15.html

Edited by sideways man on Tuesday 16th September 10:22

[Gary C]

matchmaker said:

This is a V16



English Electric 16CSVT. 247 litre turbocharged and aftercooled diesel. 2700bhp @ 850rpm.

Ha ! A tiddller.

We have 4 v16 kv major backup engines at work 10,000 hp plus 4 kv12's

And two 1,000,000hp turbines

[dinkel]

[soad]

daytona365 said:

So which car used that 247 litre job then ?...Must have been something American.

Edited by daytona365 on Tuesday 16th September 00:10

[iloveboost]

proper said:

More BRM sounds here:
http://www.billzilla.org/engread.htm

Thanks for the link some great sounds there. The BRM V16 sounds like four VFR800 engines having a fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kkfVRahXao
Lovely.

[team will]

the other me said:

team will,

do you think that video is for real ? ? with all the "techniques" available these days ? but if so, well WOW ! ! that is what I was waiting to hear on the Goodwood vid.

Have heard it twice years ago, at Goodwood & Silverstone even more "many moons ago" in a GP support race, both times being started/revved in the paddock. . .truly amazing noise, the hairs on my arms stand on end even now as your vid brings it back to me.

The big clue is hidden behind the text at the start of the video......

[team will]

braddo said:

I think a clue is in the video's name. It's the in-car sound clip from the Nick Mason book CD (also on the billzilla site above), overlaid onto a random video.

Spine-tingling noise!

Edited by braddo on Monday 15th September 21:14

The big clue is hidden behind the text at the start of the video......

[Gorbyrev]

soad said:

daytona365 said:

So which car used that 247 litre job then ?...Must have been something American.

Edited by daytona365 on Tuesday 16th September 00:10

Just like the BRM they make a lovely noise too. Takes me back to holidays on Teignmouth sea wall listening for Class 50s coming through the tunnel from Dawlish.

[canucklehead]

many years ago, when i were nobbut a lad, my dad had a 45rpm 7" single which was called 'the sound of the BRM V16' or something like that. it did exactly what it said on the tin - gave you a few minutes of tiny supercharged V16 whizzbangery, along with a Mr Chomondeley-Warner voiceover - it was fantastic.

wish I knew what had happened to it - my parents probably threw it out in one of their house moves :-(

[sideways man]

canucklehead said:

many years ago, when i were nobbut a lad, my dad had a 45rpm 7" single which was called 'the sound of the BRM V16' or something like that. it did exactly what it said on the tin - gave you a few minutes of tiny supercharged V16 whizzbangery, along with a Mr Chomondeley-Warner voiceover - it was fantastic.

wish I knew what had happened to it - my parents probably threw it out in one of their house moves :-(

I still have that single. Came with the classic and sportcar test mentioned in my first post. Its the best brm recording i have heard. Can't post it as I am a computer numpty.

Edited by sideways man on Tuesday 16th September 20:11

[ScrumpyKev]

The car was being driven by Doug Hill, museum manager at the National Motor Museum at Beaulieu. Just google Beaulieu BRM and there is a great little YouTube video of the car being revved up sans bodywork.

[thiscocks]

gixxer said:

Stirling Moss was a smart cookie, once he found out how bad the car was, he avoided it.
The one time he did drive it in a race he retired after a couple laps from overheating.

It wasn't a bad car just too unreliable to start with. Once it was finally made more reliable it was invariably the fastest car on the grid. Moss seemed to dislike it but many other drivers (as mentioned-fangio being one) very much liked it.

The problems were less to do with the car and more to do with the outsourcing of every individual part for the car. When Neubauer from Mercedes Benz visited the factory in Bourne he said 'it is one of the finest designs I have ever seen or visualized. But you will never get that motor to win races with your present small facilities'

For instance once orders were placed for component parts delivery took over a year! As the orders were spread over 350 separate firms assembly obviously became quite a task.

[hidetheelephants]

sideways man said:

Willie Green did a piece for classic and sportscar,describing the driving experience of the v16. He said the tyres lived in a world of wheelspin,as power increased by circa 100 hp for every 1000rpm. So once you had spin,there was no way of stopping it,except back off. And it would spin its wheels at 140 mph. That is not a typo by the way.

Stirling Moss hated the car,probably because it had no finesse and didn't suit his delicate style. You couldn't balance it on the throttle,because of the peaky power delivery. Juan Manuel Fangio, however,loved the car. I always knew the man had good taste.

Doug Nye's mammoth BRM tomes cover it in depth, as I recall the power curve produced as a result of using a centrifugal blower(as opposed to a roots blower, a centrifugal blower is much more efficient) gives a very steeply rising power curve, which is good in an aeroengine like a Merlin but sod all use in a racing car. Added to the already peaky nature of a 1.5l V16 it was useless on track and a glorious waste of everyone's time.

[TheAllSeeingPie]

daytona365 said:

So which car used that 247 litre job then ?...Must have been something American.

Edited by daytona365 on Tuesday 16th September 00:10

Apparently Henessey are going to "extend" a Smart Roadster and drop in that engine ...