Colin McRae - 7 Years ago we lost a true Petrol Head.

[exitwound]

LeeThr said:

Very true, but then again that was always Colin's style, against the book, "if in doubt flat out". Unfortunately it just bit him in the end. And such a shame it was the way it was as well.

Ah yes the arrogance..

I watched him being interviewed on Sky Sports in Ayr outside the Toyota dealer in Peebles St many years ago. The interviewer asked him how he felt about having so many of his fans here today to cheer him on, and his reply was, "..aye well, maybe, but we have enough points now anyway and we really don't need to be here today"

Shame he didn't inherit more of his Dad's gentlemanly manners and professionalism, but maybe thats what we expect these days from our motoring 'celebrities'.

[treetops]

cidered77 said:

J4CKO said:

McWigglebum4th said:

J4CKO said:

Ray Luxury-Yacht said:

J4CKO said:

doesn't glide when it conks out

Showing your lack of knowledge there

Well, they don't really do they, I am aware of autorotation but it still remains that Helicopters aren't much use when the engine isn't working, have seen pilots being trained for it but there are so many ifs and buts for it to provide much confidence.

They fall is a semi controlled fashion

Does it actually happen outside training and how much shorter do you end up ?

There are loads of posts on this subject, one of which posts the full air crash investigation - which I read all the way through. It's all been said before, but I and a lot people (most of them fathers i would imagine) have a very hard time eulogising a man whose crass irresponsibility took the lives of two kids (one not his own, and up there without his parent's permission). He didn't have a valid license to be flying it, he flew too low and lost it. Two kids died. Never posting on it again because it's just too stty a subject to be honest.

Edited by cidered77 on Tuesday 16th September 10:04

This, nothing more to be said - well put Cidered77.

Awful.

[wolves_wanderer]

eybic said:

wolves_wanderer said:

es and not at all.

How much use are planes with no engine?

A plane is designed to fall "gracefully" without an engine whereas I believe a heli will drop out of the sky a LOT quicker than can be considered safe.

You believe incorrectly.

Baryonyx said:

Soov535 said:

Not sure I agree.

Say he was a 19 year old boxer with a Ferrari FF, who went out without a licence or insurance and drove recklessly, killing himself, his passenger and his son, and his own son.

What would we say then??

We'd say he was a fking tit, but this isn't some young scumbag we're talking about, it's Colin McRae, the local lad done good. He's a legend and a hero, with occasionally errant judgement.

It is exactly the same.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

soad said:

Unfortunately, the man is not here to defend himself.

Neither is Jimmy Savile. But the evidence speaks for itself.

[V8RX7]

Wow, I'm surprised at all the hate.

He was a talented driver and well known risk taker.

Not a legend, hero nor devil.

This forum gets closer to MumsNet every day.

[nickfrog]

Baryonyx said:

He's a legend and a hero, with occasionally errant judgement.

Would you call killing two young children, including your own, out of gross negligence as proven by the inquiry, "errant judgement" ?

You're either very forgiving or you have an unusual set of values. Or both ?

[numtumfutunch]

V8RX7 said:

Wow, I'm surprised at all the hate.

He was a talented driver and well known risk taker.

Not a legend, hero nor devil.

This forum gets closer to MumsNet every day.

Had he topped himself only whilst flying a helicopter in the manner described by the inquiry - top bloke, live by the trashed Scooby, die by the trashed Scooby (or Eurocopter)

But to fly it like you stole it without a valid licence and take 2 kids to their graves as well - nob end

[Mastodon2]

People are making a bigger deal out of his pilot licence situation than it actually is. Yes, it was illegal, but it wasn't like he didn't know how to fly. Much the same as an experienced driver getting behind the wheel without a valid licence is illegal, but not dangerous in the same way as someone who has never driven before going out for a spin.

A great driver and sportsman who will hopefully be remembered, one day at least, for the good things he did in his life, and not his errors.

[numtumfutunch]

Mastodon2 said:

People are making a bigger deal out of his pilot licence situation than it actually is. Yes, it was illegal, but it wasn't like he didn't know how to fly.

Errrrr

But unless Im mistaken he crashed didnt he?

[Mastodon2]

numtumfutunch said:

Errrrr

But unless Im mistaken he crashed didnt he?

Yes, and I'm sure he wasn't the world's best helicopter pilot either, but experience, and indeed having a valid licence doesn't preclude a pilot from having an accident. He pushed the limits, he paid the price. Having his licence renewed wouldn't have saved his life that day.

[Welshbeef]

nickfrog said:

Baryonyx said:

He's a legend and a hero, with occasionally errant judgement.

Would you call killing two young children, including your own, out of gross negligence as proven by the inquiry, "errant judgement" ?

You're either very forgiving or you have an unusual set of values. Or both ?

A very sad end which will forever taint his sporting success.

We forget R Burns similar great driver and then taken away so young so very very quickly - no doubt will be remembered in vastly better light.

[Soov535]

Mastodon2 said:

numtumfutunch said:

Errrrr

But unless Im mistaken he crashed didnt he?

Yes, and I'm sure he wasn't the world's best helicopter pilot either, but experience, and indeed having a valid licence doesn't preclude a pilot from having an accident. He pushed the limits, he paid the price. Having his licence renewed wouldn't have saved his life that day.

No, but it would have meant that he was insured, and therefore that the wife of the poor bd who died didn't have to sue McRae's estate for money to live on now that her husband was dead.

[k-ink]

J4CKO said:

Hero and Legend are much overused words, he was a famous sportsman who had a degree of success and was very popular, he could drive a car very quickly through forests and avoid the scenery at least 75 percent of the time and by all accounts was a nice bloke.

People do over eulogise, think the adulation is way deeper than the bloke in question, its cars, rallying and all that, he is a focal point, the embodiment of the whole, and being no longer with us seems to help in that "legend", same with Ayrton Senna.

This. It was his job. He was good at it. The end.

Also, quite clearly Hero's do not carry out his final actions. You could just say he was a reckless bloke who did not care about danger. To himself or others. In the situation of a rally cross it no doubt makes you successful. In any other daily situation it likely makes you an idiot of the highest order.

ps

Cidered77, well put. I will also leave it here. Nothing more to be said.

[GreigM]

Mastodon2 said:

Having his licence renewed wouldn't have saved his life that day.

Debatable. The whole point in having the license renewals is to remind the pilots of their responsibilities and to ensure they haven't allowed bad habits to form. Its more than a piece of paper, it is to re-ground pilots who do often become affected by over-inflated egos and a lack of concern for the dangers of the situation. I support re-testing of drivers on the same basis.

[rhinochopig]

otolith said:

Don't make heroes of sportsmen, they're just fallible humans like the rest of us.

<cough>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJ-Ucegty7g

Ticks all the heroism boxes for me.

Funnily enough it was air-crash that did for him too.

[lauda]

Soov535 said:

No, but it would have meant that he was insured, and therefore that the wife of the poor bd who died didn't have to sue McRae's estate for money to live on now that her husband was dead.

Would the insurance have paid out if he'd been found to have been flying dangerously or been in any way negligent?

[Soov535]

lauda said:

Soov535 said:

No, but it would have meant that he was insured, and therefore that the wife of the poor bd who died didn't have to sue McRae's estate for money to live on now that her husband was dead.

Would the insurance have paid out if he'd been found to have been flying dangerously or been in any way negligent?

I suspect it would operate much like car insurance, i.e. yes but then the insurer might go after his estate if the policy allowed it.

[sandman77]

Why are people saying he didn't have permission to take the young boy on the helicopter? Wasn't the boys dad also in the helicopter? I don't think they were abducted.

[Petrus1983]

sandman77 said:

Why are people saying he didn't have permission to take the young boy on the helicopter? Wasn't the boys dad also in the helicopter? I don't think they were abducted.

No, Ben Porcelli was flying without his parents and I guess tagged along with McRae's son who also died.

There are old pilots and bold pilots, there aren't many old bold pilots.

[Pommygranite]

sandman77 said:

Why are people saying he didn't have permission to take the young boy on the helicopter? Wasn't the boys dad also in the helicopter? I don't think they were abducted.

No he wasnt and his parents have explicitly stated they didnt give permission

From the BBC:

Rally car champion Colin McRae has been blamed for causing the helicopter crash in which he died along with his five-year-old son and two family friends.

A fatal accident inquiry found the crash, near his family home in Lanark in 2007, happened because he carried out unnecessary low-level manoeuvres.

It also found that Mr McRae's flying was "imprudent" and "unreasonable".

In a statement, the McRae family said they "still believe we will never know what caused the crash".
No permission

Mr McRae, 39, his five-year-old son Johnny, the boy's six-year-old friend Ben Porcelli and Graeme Duncan, 37, all died when the aircraft came down near the McRae family home in Lanark on 15 September 2007 as they flew home from a trip to see a friend.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

Low-level flying in such difficult terrain, was imprudent, unreasonable and contrary to the principles of good airmanship”

Sheriff Nikola Stewart

The inquiry had heard from Karen and Mark Porcelli, the parents of Ben, who said they did not give Mr McRae permission to take their son in the helicopter.

Sheriff Nikola Stewart, who heard the inquiry over 16 days at Lanark Sheriff Court, concluded that the deaths could have been avoided if Mr McRae had not engaged in low-level flying "when it was unnecessary and unsafe to do so".

In her written determination, the sheriff concluded: "The deaths and the accident resulting in the deaths might have been avoided had Mr McRae not flown his helicopter into the Mouse Valley.

"Such a precaution would have been entirely reasonable. There was no necessity to enter the Mouse Valley. There were no operational or logistical reasons to enter the Mouse Valley.

"Mr McRae chose to fly the helicopter into the valley. For a private pilot such as Mr McRae, lacking the necessary training, experience or requirement to do so, embarking upon such demanding, low-level flying in such difficult terrain, was imprudent, unreasonable and contrary to the principles of good airmanship."
Crash debris The helicopter crashed near Mr McRae's home in September 2007

The ruling states that the accident happened when, due to an "unknown occurrence", the aircraft deviated from its intended flight path and crashed into trees lining the side of Mouse Valley.

The aircraft was in powered flight at the time of the crash and Mr McRae had attempted to recover from that unknown incident.

These attempts, the sheriff said, were unsuccessful because of the position and speed of the helicopter within Mouse Valley and the ensuing restrictions on opportunities to land the helicopter or fly it to safety.

Such options would have been available to him had he "adhered to rules of good airmanship and desisted from flying in the valley at low height and high speed", she said.
'Unsafe' flying

The sheriff stated: "It would have been a reasonable precaution to refrain from flying helicopter G-CBHL into Mouse Valley wherein the pilot engaged in low-level flying when it was unnecessary and unsafe for him to do so, and whilst carrying passengers on board."

As part of the hearing, the sheriff and lawyers involved in the case visited the woods where the Eurocopter Squirrel aircraft crashed.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

We still believe we will never know what caused the crash”

Jimmy McRae Colin McRae's father

One of the crash victims, Mr Duncan, filmed much of the outbound and return flights on his personal camcorder and some of the footage was recovered and included in the inquiry hearings.

Sheriff Stewart said the footage indicated that the helicopter was being flown "at unnecessarily low heights".

"He (Mr McRae) undertook significant manoeuvring at low level and the helicopter seems to have encountered significant g-loading as a result, to the evident enjoyment of his passengers.

"The episodes of extremely low-level flying and the excessive manoeuvre parameters, particularly the descent into the valley by Larkhall, all as captured on the video recording, are indicative of an aircraft being flown imprudently, without due regard to the principles of good airmanship and in such a way that normal safety margins would be reduced."

To fly an aircraft in the UK, it is necessary to hold a pilot's licence and a valid medical certificate, and to have the licence validated with the type of aircraft to be flown.

Sheriff Stewart found that Mr McRae did not hold a valid flying licence or a valid "rating" for the Eurocopter Squirrel helicopter.
Continue reading the main story
Inquiry timeline

The FAI took place at Lanark Sheriff Court
Evidence was heard over 12 days between 12 January and 26 May, 2011
An inspection of the site took place and points along the flight path were visited on January, 2011
Final submissions heard on 8 August, 2011
Fatal Accident Inquiry conclusions were published on 6 September

"He was, accordingly, in breach of article 26 of the Air Navigation Order 2005 when he flew his helicopter on September 15 2007 and should not have flown that machine at that time," she said.

The sheriff's findings go further than an Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) report, published in February 2009, which found no cause could be positively determined into the tragedy.

In a statement, Mr McRae's family said they still believed the cause of the crash could not be determined.

His father, Jimmy McRae, said: "We still believe we will never know what caused the crash but we were never in any doubt as to Colin's prowess as a fine pilot.

"Everybody knows from Colin's rallying career that safety is always an issue and that his reactions and eye and hand co-ordination were world-class."

He said his family had wanted the inquiry to recommend that private aircraft should be fitted with a flight data recorder.

He said: "Had a flight recorder been fitted to the aircraft, it may have been possible to determine what occurred in the final seconds of the flight and what actually caused the helicopter to crash.

"This would prevent uncertainty as to the cause of the crash and allow lessons to be learned from tragic accidents such as this."

Mr McRae said he hoped the family would be able to "move forward" following the findings.

The McRae family's solicitor, Peter Watson, added: "Although Colin's licence was out-of-date, this played no contributory factor whatsoever to the accident."