Watch Ferrari/K'segg make the P1 look slow through Brunchen

[Tom73]

Chris Harris said:

No, I do - because sometimes these people turn out to be the real deal and I get to drive a P1 and a 918 again!

Remember, back in the day, no one believed Flemke owned his McLaren F1....

Hah. That's quite clever actually.

[Tom73]

zeppelin101 said:

A time wasn't officially released, so unless you know something the rest of us don't and can back it up, that is purely conjecture.

Besides which, nurburgring lap times are completely unregulated, not the best basis for any significant comparison in all honesty.

Is it? They said they were going to break the record and they didn't. Or at least I'm assuming they didn't because they made such a big deal of it and then waffled. I think that's a fair assumption.

McLaren obviously thought it had some significance.



Anyhow I'm getting a bit late so you boys will have to do without me for a few hours.

[Tom73]

peterg1955 said:

aw bless, did Mum say your tea is ready?

No your mum left hours ago.

mikebradford said:

Fair play to you for taking it.

No worries. It's not my first rodeo and I knew what I was getting myself into. I actually returned to this thread a few times and stared at the void with sad eyes as I was asking myself: "Where's Max_Dorque? Where's streetsod? Stevemongo, why has thou forsaken me??", so I was actually quite happy when the merry McMob arrived and gave this thread and it's author the attention it deserved.

ManOpener said:

"Visual" evidence, by the virtue of the fact that the human eye is deeply fallible, doesn't tend to have a great degree of validity, especially when it leads to a conclusion so utterly isolated from the evidence itself. Now, if you were actually talking something properly tangible, like segments of lap times, corner speeds et cetera, I'd be inclined to agree that you had a point. But fairly subjective perceptions of a single corner on a racing circuit, taken in isolation and without any actual context, aren't exactly brilliant as the basis for an estimation of an overall lap time, are they?

Well it's a lot more conclusive than any footage of Chris (or any other journo) drifting around a track and mindlessly orating about "a whole new thing" will ever be, and you boys were all fawning over those threads like someone handed you the mass-energy equivalence formula, so whether you like or not I will add a fistful of salt to your pseudo-scientific odyssey and scoff at it with a grounded sense of superiority.

scarble said:

Lots of fanboyism here, it's the same as the Rosberg/Hamilton debate, all driven by nationalism really, you all should be ashamed of your lack of logic.
I can't comment on which is best, I haven't driven any of them and never will, but I can comment that only Porsche have released a time (afaik even Koenigsegg haven't) and that generally speaking I don't consider brake based faux-diffs to be on par with proper diffs, though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best
thing ever and completely infallible.
Not convinced by the egg either mind, GPS based suspension settings? Bleh. Though if you watch CvK's videos he is rather a clever chap and extremely passionate, even if his cars are laggy wooshers
I shan't be drawn any further than this, just felt the need to give poor Tom a little boost while you lot resort to poking fun and gang up like playground bullies.

Haha, cheers mate. I appreciate the support.

Max_Torque said:

Lets take "Brake steer" as an example again. Which of the following processes do you think Mclaren automotive carried out when developing the P1:

1) Go do the pub, get pissed, think, "hey boys, lets uses brake steer, it's wicked init"

or

2) Spend several hundred thousand pounds and many hundreds of man hrs benchmarking ALL the existing, and emerging chassis technologies before using objective data, simulation, and experience to determine which one of those solutions offered the best performance within the necessary criteria?

Ah the old "only the best will do for McLaren, racing pedigree" fanboy argument. I wasn't expecting that from you to be honest. Or maybe I was.

Look I think it goes without saying, given they've reused the same chassis and engine for three cars, that they do not have unlimited funds and can throw an endless amount of money at a project to optimize their cars. They had tons of problems with the 12C and so forth so it is not like they are without fault either.

Now compared to Koenigsegg or Pagani (Zonda), who have worked with their platform in a evolutionary small volume process for many, many years they are at a disadvantage. Compared to Porsche and Ferrari who can and will pour silly amounts of monies into a project they are at a disadvantage. So good on them for achieving so much in such a short time span on a inferior platform but lets also be realistic about what they are actually capable of.

Max_Torque said:

ETA. Well except for the fact that saying "though MT will no doubt shout me down on this because modern car electronics are the best thing ever and completely infallible" does rather suggest a thinly veiled insult and a poorly constructed argument, as most LSDs these days, even "ones in the diff" are controlled by those "infallible" electronics you seem to not like much?

Boy, you're just a autistic bundle of joy, aren't you?

He clearly didn't at it was clearly tongue in cheek.

Streetrod said:

If I am not mistaken he did get a ban in the past but I cant remember if it was on here or over on Teamspeed

Well, you are mistaken.

Edited by Tom73 on Wednesday 17th September 01:36

[Tom73]

Ksegger said:

It's quite clear that the One:1 is in a league of its own when it comes to track performance, and I just can't wait to see it go for the record.

Yes clearly. -10 seconds or faster than the P1 is my guess.

And watch me bump this thread when it does.

zeppelin101 said:

I don't give a monkeys which is faster, however when a poorly constructed video is used to draw an argument like this which has nothing statistical or realistically meaningful to back it up is pretty daft.

You can't honestly be sticking by the fact that this is a legitimate analysis?

I can and I will.

And this thread was actually inspired by various McLaren threads on PH and Chris' hack piece but most of all an old Top Gear piece.

http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/mclaren-p1-veyron...

I'd say this thread has more depth to it though. More "meta" so to speak.

rigga said:

Brilliant, just what this thread needs, another egg fanboy

Haha yes, because this thread is so shamefully cluttered by mad Koenigsegg fans (as opposed to mad McLaren and Pagani fans) that we possibly couldn't bear one more. Before you know it there could easily be three or four (don't be alarmed!) of us not preaching the McLaren/Pagani gospel and then what would happen? It would be utter chaos I tell you, a bunch of "eggies" prancing about with their turbans, burqas and big lips as if they owned the place. Fekkin can't have that, can we?

epom said:

That Koeeehdhngnfjjsjfjsjshfjdj one looked very very fast alright, the rest of em were average enough tbh.

Obviously. I'd say the P1 was below average though. From my highly objective and educated perspective of course.

[Tom73]

Pommygranite said:

Tom - what's your educated perspective?

A mixture of bloated gobbledygook and a soaring ego of course, much like any well respected auto journo.

Max_Torque said:

We also have no accurate timing data on that footage, taken on different days. For all we know any of it could be sped up / slowed down to skew the "results" etc.........

Tin foil hat.

You can actually download the raw footage (I have), zero the cars at the apex and check the validity of the gifs by frame skipping forward to when they pass the yellow line. It didn't take me more than 15 minutes so you should be able to do it in a few hours or so.

stevesingo said:

Well do so then. So far you have not answered any persons question with a direct cohesive response. All your responses to legitimate questions are misdirection and evade the point.

So we all wait with baited breath. Demonstrate legitimacy of your GIF analasis?

Also, in case you have not noticed, the responses to your oringinal post do not take issue with your claim because your claim may be incorrect, the issue people have is the evidence you use to support your claim does not really stand up as a reasonable arguement. Flaws in the evidence can be (and have been) pointed out, but you don't seem to accept that. In not accepting reasonable arguments as part of the debate is making you look foolish at best.

It's not "my" gif analysis first of all. I just thought it would be a good for a laugh on PH.

http://www.carthrottle.com/compare-the-mclaren-p1-...

What type of "evidence" would you need? I was kind enough to find the raw footage and it's blatantly obvious from both the descriptions and the footage itself that P1 is going full bore (in it's record attempt) and the One:1 quite clearly isn't. You can argue back and forth about technicalities here and there in an attempt to avoid the glaring embarassement, but if it runs away 0.6 seconds from the P1 without even trying in a very short segment of the track then there's no point in debating whether it could be a little bit faster or slower. It's bloody fast. It's obviously bloody faster than the P1. And it's obviously not even bloody trying. That's all you really need to know. And you're just going to have to find a way to deal with what me and you and everyone else with a functioning set of eyes can spot at a quick glance.

stevesingo said:

1, Do you know for certain the P1 in the GIF was being driven through the sequence of corners at the maximum speed possible? Remember Yes or No.

It's clearly stated in the OP that the footage on the P1 is from their record attempt and neither of the vocal McLaren boys have made any attempts to refute it but rather have resorted to a variety of strawman arguments.

Max_Torque said:

Because, and lets be honest with ourselves here. IT IS FUN AND MAKES US LAUGH........

Thing is, i'll all up for people to have their "favorite car" or whatever, but the odd thing about the OP of this thread is he takes no part in any other parts of Pistonheads. Even comedy hat wearing serial lunatics like 300brake could be found on other parts of the forum, discussing other stuff.
Tom73 has only ever posted about 'eggs and only when he has some sensationalist (and fatally flawed) pseudo argument to make.
I hope/think he enjoys it too, hence my reference to "oh no, here we all go again" in the 6th post on this thread.

No I don't mind. It's fair play.

Fastdruid said:

The sad thing is that there is plenty of really really interesting stuff coming out from Koenigsegg eg:
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2014/05/the-koenigsegg-o...
I suppose that's not bashing the P1 though so Tom73 isn't interested in posting it.

Oh I've done a few of those. Have a look through my post history and see for yourself how it panned out for me.

StottyEvo said:

Keeping on subject, this was the very first thing I noticed On the four car comparison clip it actually pauses when the P1 has a 15degree slip angle compared to where it is supposed to be.

Its blindingly obvious for anyone to see, except Tom apparently

This has been covered already. There are footage where the P1 keeps it together but they are not as quick.

And ultimately the P1 wandering out onto the curb with tire slip is just what it does because it doesn't have an e-diff and underperforms compared to competitors that does have one, like the much heavier 918 for instance. Even a child could understand the basic concept of push+pivot being better than just pivot when you are forcing a change of direction on an object that wants to keep travelling forward where you want it to steer into a corner, but apparently this is a rather difficult concept to grasp for the auto experts on PH.

Chris Harris said:

Good Lord , he's still going. Where does he find the energy?

I'm a bit lost now, at what point did anyone say a P1 was faster than a One-2-One (not sure how you type it)? I'm not aware if anyone independent having even driven the thing.

I'm assuming young Tom will be volunteering himself for the 'Ring lap in the 'Egg?

Oh hey, Chris. Missed you.

I thought you made it very clear that this conversation was beneath you? Did you have a whole new change of heart?

And forget the One:1, I would have expected it to be faster than the older Agera and the heavier 918. Or are you saying the One:1 is potentially a whole whole new thing?

What do you find so whole new fresh and exciting about it if I may ask? Is it how the e-diff makes it go in the direction you point it at? The fat(ter) tires connected to the ground? The low weight and high power to weight ratio? The brake steer (or "ESP" in Koenigsegg speek)? The trick Ohlins dampers fitted in nearly every high performance car on the planet including the 12C GT3 and with 99% certainty the P1 GTR? Truly ground breaking stuff that is. With your god given talent you'll get a good 40 minutes out of that. Can't wait.

Suggestion: "Mega-new thing!"

[Tom73]

Chris Harris said:

Yep, meds need to be stronger Tom.

Then call your doctor? I like you mate but this is really out of my reach...

[Tom73]

Max_Torque said:

I'm all for having a democratic vote on the subject, this is a "forum" after all, so:


This video conclusively shows that the ONE:1 is faster than the P1/LA-rari/918:

YES VOTES: 1 (Tom73)

NO VOTES: 1 (me)


Please add you vote to the count people.

"Thoze who harbor ze jewz, pleaze raize your handz..."

Pitch fork democracy rarely works, mate. You're better off going to the pub and kicking down some unsuspecting victim for wearing the wrong footy shirt.

[Tom73]

Max_Torque said:

So, have an open vote is "undemocratic" now is it?? Seems about as fair as it's possible to be to me?

Haha. Well have at it then. "When all else fails, gather the mob" - every petulant bully in history

[Tom73]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Ah by my good friend Gallardoguy.

Listen boys, I appreciate a good try-hard when I see one but cowardly displays of bullying and mob behavior doesn't impress me at all. On the contrary it only makes me even more unbearable and cocky, so you might want to rethink your approach if you're actually looking to win this debate.

If not, well then I'll gladly accept your unconditional surrender and will tip my hat to all the lurkers. Either way works for me.

Max_Torque said:

What "mob" is that?

Having a vote gives everyone registered on this forum the chance to vote. They can vote either way, no one is forcing their hand. Fair, as fair can be. I can't influence who vote for which option any more than you can Tom.


Or, are you just afraid of loosing that vote, and having to admit to yourself you are wrong the whole time??

Oh go find a schoolyard and push some kid, already. Get it out of your system.

[Tom73]

Ksegger said:

I couldn't have said it better myself. The One:1 just made it look effortless.

Cheers.

Yeah. It stole what: two, three car lengths by a quick push at the throttle on the exit? And we're "debating" if the track was cold? Silly boys.

ManFromDelmonte said:

I've never seen Tom73 before but I'm adding him to my mental list of mental posters whose threads I will always read.

Haha. I'll take that as a compliment, mate.

[Tom73]

coyft said:

Good on you Tom. Refreshing to get a perspective from a niche manufacture supporter. For me McLaren lost all credibility when they failed to announce a 'ring time. Billy big bks Ron, should put up or shut up.

Thanks.

Yes it seems like an actual time is a simple enough way to kill off the debate, doesn't it? And he did stick his neck out. The "of course we did" reveal had me laughing out loud.

Max_Torque said:

Hmmm, let me see: Ksegger

1) Registered to PH today

2) only has two post history, both on this thread in "support" of Tom73

3) Has a suspiciously familiar username

4) registers from the same country as a certain multithreaded fruit loop

Haha, and there we have it. Max's petulant internet bully behavior, possibly/likely spurred on by a childhood firmly on the very bottom of the pecking order, have finally blossomed out into a full on paranoid tantrum fueled by cat memes worthy of a 14 year old schoolgirl.

Honestly, if you're the type of level headed genius that's working on the P1 it's no wonder it's such a terrific world beater. Judging from the McLaren employees presence in this forum I'm pretty sure the "to e-diff or not to e-diff" debate was settled by Max and a couple of his McColleagues giving the opposition wet willys, gleefully spurred on by Ron in his casual friday full body latex suit.

(I'm sure some mod can confirm that we're not the same user. I'd personally also like some assurance that this putrid loon isn't allowed anywhere near my contact information or private messages, thank you very much)

DkVelo said:

But, as it is allso pointet out. Even a lesser mentally evolved person can se and judge that there is a noticable difference between how the cars manege the few corners in question. And then going back to the before mentioned values. Not two laps on the Nürburgring are alike because it is as long as it is.

That's what I'm saying too. The time is obviously irrelevant aside from allowing for some benchmarks to go with the visuals when deciding where the cars does what, but it's plain obvious the cars have very different characteristics through Brunchen that you most certainly can draw from so why even bother discussing all the other unimportant nonsense --> (). Like, just use those eyes and ears and if it's not good enough then nothing will be...

Thanks for the support!

stevesingo said:

...may I ask another question?

Do you think that a person, who does not seem to be affiliated with McLaren, who has filmed a P1 at the 'ring may have something to gain by claiming that this was in fact a record lap for a production car?

Remember Yes or No, I don't want to sift through another attempt at deflecting the answer to a closed question.

You may... Though mind you this is not a court of law and you're not a lawyer mate. So relax a bit.

This footage made the rounds during McLaren's records attempt along with some other spotting stuff that emerged at the time. Is it necessarily the very quickest of McLaren's runs? No of course there's no way of telling if they went a bit faster (or slower) off camera but that's irrelevant in the bigger picture. The fact is all the footage that's emerged have shown a P1 with difficulties turning into the corners and with a tendency for wheel slip on uneven traction surfaces (due to, most likely, a lack of e-diff, traction control and throttle steer - or "torque steer" in McLaren speek) and this just so happens to be by far the fastest selection of a rather abysmal bunch of generally poor attempts. The car's character actually reminds me of Koenigsegg before they got a proper e-diff: a ton of raw power and fairly sorted but lacking more refined torque vectoring.

The motives of the spotter I honestly don't know and I feel it's unnecessary to speculate because it's just another strawman and in a way it's like attempting to convince a 9/11 truther in the sense that anything I say (or even don't say) will invariably be "wrong". I would like to add however that it does not say it was from their record LAP (and neither have I said it) but from their record ATTEMPT, meaning the time they spent setting hot laps before the great anticlimactic reveal. If it's the actual (failed) non-record lap is anyone's guess and no such claims have been made.

You can also draw some thing from McLaren's own heavily edited video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9IWiTpWeiM

- Goodwin is wearing the same helmet and kit as in the gif
- Very little footage is shown of the cars actual cornering ability in tighter corners, those are carefully edited out instead of put on display
- The car at one point goes into a drift and at the 2:45 mark you can hear and see the car slipping repeatedly from inside the cabin at a moderate bend
- We're treated to what is often referred to as "subliminal anchors" in the PR world, in the form of "Formula One", "Jackie Stewart", "it's what we do" etc
- Ironically the soundtrack is of a girl going what sounds a bit like "lala-lalala" (no doubt covering her ears)

Edited by Tom73 on Thursday 18th September 07:03