Watch Ferrari/K'segg make the P1 look slow through Brunchen
Discussion
Don1 said:
?
From someone who has no idea who you are, or your history here, this thread is a trifle bizarre...
Right. Obviously some people do know me, so you might want to take that into consideration first of all...From someone who has no idea who you are, or your history here, this thread is a trifle bizarre...
Long story short the gents (Max_Torque, stevesingo, streetrod, etc) in this thread had it in for me ever since I made a few statements about the P1 and Pagani respectively in discussions that turned nasty (from their end) and now that things aren't developing as they would have hoped, to put it that way, the conversation has steered from arguments mixed with insult to exclusively childish insult and mockery. And that's where you entered.
So if I were you I'd just ignore it or stay and enjoy the show.
Chris Harris said:
Hahahahahahahaha!!!
Is this you then? Still willing to stick by that statement despite it's poor cornering ability and traction? Because to me it looks like you were wrong and they haven't solved the "brake steer"/ESP thingy at all. Care to elaborate what you meant? "It corners like crap but feels great?" "Good for a rally?"Chris Harris said:
andyps said:
It really says enough about the effectiveness of the solution adopted in the P1. The only other thing I would add is that even if a hydraulically operated electronically controlled (which many journalists report is not as good to drive as a non-electronic version) LSD cost say £5k it would have been perfectly feasible to include one in the P1 and not put off potential owners. the fact that the car doesn't have this indicates the brake steer system to be preferable for the car overall. But if you don't like it, don't buy one!
The one problem with your statement is that when journos reference electronic diffs it's Electronic Traction Control Systems they're referring to, ie the P1.[quote]
The P1's system is the first I've driven that actually works. When you see the video next week, you'll see. The response from the rear axle under power feels like there is a mechanical locking diff. It's uncanny. But I just judge these things on confidence - in a 12C, even in its latest brake-steer calibration ( and late cars are much different to early ones) you never quite know if one or both wheels will spin-up. In the P1, it's always both.
Sounds terrible, but you need to feel it from the cabin to see how it works. For me it was the big question mark over the car's specification, having driven it, it's a compete non-argument.
The video also asks about the car's ability to do one NS lap with a single charge of KERS - I won't spoil the answer.
I also have a top speed for the Dottinge Hohe!.......
The one problem with your statement is that when journos reference electronic diffs it's Electronic Traction Control Systems they're referring to, ie the P1.[quote]
tom73 said:
The "proper diff" is hydraulic and electronically operated, meaning it takes input from sensors and actuates the hydraulics instead of being a crude mechanical centrifugal diff. It's basically the best of two worlds, mechanical with true torque vectoring and the precision of sensor input. I would love to see someone harp on it.
"If you don't like it, don't buy one"? That settles it then. I guess there's no need to discuss any hypercars on this forum. In fact: "Why do you care? Are you buying one??"
I'm the biggest critic of these electronic non-differentials. I think the 12C suffered for not having a mechanical LSD, and even though I do buy all of the engineering arguments that see then as a malign influence in the search for optimum road behaviour, I think modern power outputs require them (and I like doing skids)"If you don't like it, don't buy one"? That settles it then. I guess there's no need to discuss any hypercars on this forum. In fact: "Why do you care? Are you buying one??"
The P1's system is the first I've driven that actually works. When you see the video next week, you'll see. The response from the rear axle under power feels like there is a mechanical locking diff. It's uncanny. But I just judge these things on confidence - in a 12C, even in its latest brake-steer calibration ( and late cars are much different to early ones) you never quite know if one or both wheels will spin-up. In the P1, it's always both.
Sounds terrible, but you need to feel it from the cabin to see how it works. For me it was the big question mark over the car's specification, having driven it, it's a compete non-argument.
The video also asks about the car's ability to do one NS lap with a single charge of KERS - I won't spoil the answer.
I also have a top speed for the Dottinge Hohe!.......
Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 14:39
Max_Torque said:
It's the thread that just keeps on giving!
Bookmarked as my "favourite thread of the week" and it's only tuesday ;-)
Here's one for you to explain. I can find more if you persist.Bookmarked as my "favourite thread of the week" and it's only tuesday ;-)
Max_Torque said:
tom73 said:
"The electronic differential continuously distributes torque to the rear wheels, both in Power Off (turning in for the corner) and Power On (accelerating out of the corner), guaranteeing excellent vehicle stability and control in all driving conditions and on all surfaces. The E-Diff 3 now works in a more integrated manner with the F1-Trac, using a series of F1-Trac parameters and evaluations (such as estimates of grip) both in manettino positions in which the F1-Trac is inserted (Sport – Race) and those in which it is deactivated (CT Off and CST Off). Compared to previous versions, E-Diff 3 delivers improved torque distribution coming out of corners (in Sport, Race, CT Off and CST Off), which translates into improved grip, better roadholding and more progressive handling on the limit. The result is an improvement of 32 percent in longitudinal acceleration out of corners compared to previous models and a lap time at Fiorano of just 1" 25 seconds."
^^ Which is exactly what the P1s Brake steer system already does, except it requires no extra hardware above what is already fitted for stability control,and as such carries no weight penalty compared to a conventional mechanical LSD. And of course, to work properly, systems like brake steer which act to balance drive torque across the axle, actually require a speed difference, and as such, fitting a mechanical LSD would reduce performance not increase it.So i tell you what Tom, when you make your own hyper car, you can fit what ever tech you like to it, but in the mean time, i'd leave it to real engineers to decide what tech to fit to cars such as the P1 etc.
Tom73 said:
Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 14:39
If you can get me a P1, I'll happily drive it with you in the passenger seat and you can feel what's going on.
Why you think people like me would bother to make this stuff up is beyond me.
I report what I feel. You look at video images of cars, without making allowances for any post production work, and report what you think you see.
Tom, as a newcomer to this thread with no familiarity with your apparent obsessions, can you give me one good reason why I should trust your conclusions, apparently based on a few scraps of footage that still can't be logically expanded to reach the same conclusion you appear to have, over the criticisms of someone like max_torque who appears, to an external observer like myself, to be far more knowledgeable on all of the pertinent issues that could affect lap time, and thus has an opinion which carries far greater empirical weight? Or for that matter, those of Chris Harris whose views also carry, in my eye, infinitely more weight than yours by virtue of him actually having driven any of the vehicles in question?
Edited by ManOpener on Tuesday 16th September 15:03
Chris Harris said:
Tom73 said:
It was lazy journalism and you know it.
Hahahahahahahaha!!!What really matters is that you're wrong, as you should now admit. After all, Tom73's proved that you're a lazy journalist, and therefore none of us can trust a word you say.
ManOpener said:
Tom, as a newcomer to this thread with no familiarity with your apparent obsessions, can you give me one good reason why I should trust your conclusions, apparently based on a few scraps of footage that still can't be logically expanded to reach the same conclusion you appear to have, over the criticisms of someone like max_torque who appears, to an external observer like myself, to be far more knowledgeable on all of the pertinent issues that could affect lap time, and thus has an opinion which carries far greater empirical weight?
I like the cut of that mans jib, carry on sir....I have to say that Tom73 sounds like a 12 year old spouting off about why his favourite car is best. My 8 year old son is more convincing on why he prefers by a small margin the Veyron Supersports over the P1. He has no time at all for the Ferrari. He thinks the 918 is cool, but not as special as the others. Sadly, he'll never be mates with Tom, because he's not particularly interested in the Koenigsegg.
Chris Harris said:
Tom73 said:
It was lazy journalism and you know it.
Hahahahahahahaha!!!Tom has enlightened you to your failings, and tomorrow you will awaken all the better for it.
If your lucky you may even become a better driver, hopefully allowing you to make up for all the faults in the P1. Saves McLaren millions in having to make revisions.
Chris Harris said:
I think you're on day release, or the meds aren't working properly.
If you can get me a P1, I'll happily drive it with you in the passenger seat and you can feel what's going on.
Why you think people like me would bother to make this stuff up is beyond me.
I report what I feel. You look at video images of cars, without making allowances for any post production work, and report what you think you see.
When it visibly struggles to cut a corner properly and loses traction it doesn't take a genius to conclude that it could use a little more diff and a little less "brake steer" and even some kid on a smart phone could tell you that. If you can get me a P1, I'll happily drive it with you in the passenger seat and you can feel what's going on.
Why you think people like me would bother to make this stuff up is beyond me.
I report what I feel. You look at video images of cars, without making allowances for any post production work, and report what you think you see.
ManOpener said:
Tom, as a newcomer to this thread with no familiarity with your apparent obsessions, can you give me one good reason why I should trust your conclusions, apparently based on a few scraps of footage that still can't be logically expanded to reach the same conclusion you appear to have, over the criticisms of someone like max_torque who appears, to an external observer like myself, to be far more knowledgeable on all of the pertinent issues that could affect lap time, and thus has an opinion which carries far greater empirical weight?
Well you don't have to. There's more than me who's chimed in on this topic so take your pick. Here's one:isaldri said:
Perhaps I can chip in here with a bit of actual driving experience....
I have driven the 12C a reasonable amount on the road and a few times on track and on track the 12C can feel a bit unnatural close to the limit, although whether that is because of the suspension or the lack of a LSD is trickier to say. However, to me personally an electric diff car like the 458 feels slightly synthetic as well, certainly compared to a car like the 7.2 GT3 RS with a mechanical locking diff. Per the P1 article, it does seem that now the brake steer calibration has advanced to the point where if CH feels the car feels natural going sideways, one can quite reasonably assume there is no difference in feel between running the an electric diff and just using brake steer. (well up until brake steer cooks one of the rear discs... hehe)
I would probably still hesitate to say the Mclaren solution is necessary a 'better' one though. There is no doubt the Mclaren engineers are very confident there is no possible gain in absolute performance solely relying on brake steer compared to some kind of e-diff having tested it a fair bit and it seems now the handling/feel of the car is spot on as well. However, one cannot help but notice that Ferrari and Porsche with a vast amount of sportscar building experience have decided to combine both brake steer (under the guise of PTV and ESC or any number of silly acronyms) with electronic diffs in their latest models (991 GT3 and 458 speciale) rather than simply relying on brake steer systems and I do have some difficulty believing that Mclaren alone have found a vastly superior way of calibrating their system...
I have driven the 12C a reasonable amount on the road and a few times on track and on track the 12C can feel a bit unnatural close to the limit, although whether that is because of the suspension or the lack of a LSD is trickier to say. However, to me personally an electric diff car like the 458 feels slightly synthetic as well, certainly compared to a car like the 7.2 GT3 RS with a mechanical locking diff. Per the P1 article, it does seem that now the brake steer calibration has advanced to the point where if CH feels the car feels natural going sideways, one can quite reasonably assume there is no difference in feel between running the an electric diff and just using brake steer. (well up until brake steer cooks one of the rear discs... hehe)
I would probably still hesitate to say the Mclaren solution is necessary a 'better' one though. There is no doubt the Mclaren engineers are very confident there is no possible gain in absolute performance solely relying on brake steer compared to some kind of e-diff having tested it a fair bit and it seems now the handling/feel of the car is spot on as well. However, one cannot help but notice that Ferrari and Porsche with a vast amount of sportscar building experience have decided to combine both brake steer (under the guise of PTV and ESC or any number of silly acronyms) with electronic diffs in their latest models (991 GT3 and 458 speciale) rather than simply relying on brake steer systems and I do have some difficulty believing that Mclaren alone have found a vastly superior way of calibrating their system...
dudleybloke said:
Its like getting into a fight over a game of top trumps.
Tom. Have you driven any of the cars your comparing?
I've been asked this before but I really think it shouldn't matter. I'm not big on appeal to authority and I think it's a daft way of settling a debate, just barely more elaborate than punching a smaller bloke to shut him up. Tom. Have you driven any of the cars your comparing?
I am not a 14 year old child without any experience if that's what you're asking though.
Edited by Tom73 on Tuesday 16th September 15:11
Tom73 said:
Are you per any chance a McLaren employee?
Nope, I have piss all to do with Mclaren.However, I do recognise a blinded fan boy whenever I see one and the evidence there is, I'm afraid, inscrutable.
When you start posting about something that isn't a Koenigsegg and arguing the toss with people who have direct experience with these products you so wonderfully debase at every opportunity based on your armchair hypotheses, then maybe people will start taking you seriously.
Until then, I would bet that every thread you start or derail will end up heading exactly the same way as this one and all the ones before it has.
Also, nowhere in that Chris Harris quote you've dug out does it in any way back up what you're trying to say. Unless you have never read English before.
Max_Torque said:
So jealous! If CH had described ME like that^^ i'd have a T shirt made up and everything!!
(hows about it, a special PH "Monkey thinks i'm on day release!" or something? (artwork tbc) ;-)
Well then I suppose you're just the type that's easily impressed by d-list celebrities. (hows about it, a special PH "Monkey thinks i'm on day release!" or something? (artwork tbc) ;-)
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