BMW i8 and giving hybrids an easy ride

[Impasse]

I get what ORD means. On its merits solely as a £100k+ car the i8 is a bit meh. Jaguar, Aston, Porsche, Audi even BMW themselves offer better "cars" but their examples don't have a clever drivetrain/powerpack so their technology is deemed inferior for various reasons. However, the driving experience seems to be lauded in the Jaguar/Aston/Porsche/Audi/BMW group, whereas the i8 is seen to be "merely" ok. Competent at best, but not exactly "get up at 06:00 on a Sunday" stuff.

[Fidgits]

I think ORD is getting upset over the fact he thinks the i8 is a sports car, and that Autocar seemed to have reviewed it more as a GT car and been very kind because BMW have created a low CO2, hybrid GT/Sports that handles well if not amazing, is reasonable economical but a bit pricey, yet still got a good review.

For me, its the first electric/hybrid car ive seen that i'd actually consider buying, i cant afford it, but it looks good, goes well, and personally, i'm impressed with what they have achieved.

[ORD]

Fidgits said:

I think ORD is getting upset over the fact he thinks the i8 is a sports car, and that Autocar seemed to have reviewed it more as a GT car and been very kind because BMW have created a low CO2, hybrid GT/Sports that handles well if not amazing, is reasonable economical but a bit pricey, yet still got a good review.

For me, its the first electric/hybrid car ive seen that i'd actually consider buying, i cant afford it, but it looks good, goes well, and personally, i'm impressed with what they have achieved.

Nope. It was reviewed as a sports car and ranked accordingly above lots of excellent sports cars.

In any case, I am not the only one to think it is supposed to be a sports car. See, for example, BMW's webpage for it:-

http://www.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/new-vehicles/bmw-i/i8/2...

[anonymous-user]

ORD said:

Fidgits said:

I think ORD is getting upset over the fact he thinks the i8 is a sports car, and that Autocar seemed to have reviewed it more as a GT car and been very kind because BMW have created a low CO2, hybrid GT/Sports that handles well if not amazing, is reasonable economical but a bit pricey, yet still got a good review.

For me, its the first electric/hybrid car ive seen that i'd actually consider buying, i cant afford it, but it looks good, goes well, and personally, i'm impressed with what they have achieved.

Nope. It was reviewed as a sports car and ranked accordingly above lots of excellent sports cars.

In any case, I am not the only one to think it is supposed to be a sports car. See, for example, BMW's webpage for it:-

http://www.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/new-vehicles/bmw-i/i8/2...

So, to be a sports car, it must handle just like a 911? Is that what you are saying? And if it doesn't then it isn't a "sports car"


(sorry, i'm still slightly confused as to why you seem to be so annoyed by a car you have no intention of buying and one that doesn't seem to suit you at all?)

[Fidgits]

ORD said:

Nope. It was reviewed as a sports car and ranked accordingly above lots of excellent sports cars.

In any case, I am not the only one to think it is supposed to be a sports car. See, for example, BMW's webpage for it:-

http://www.bmw.co.uk/en_GB/new-vehicles/bmw-i/i8/2...

so to summarise what i think you're saying.

You are unhappy that Autocar reviewed it as a sports car, gave a honest description of the handling not being perfect, yet scored it better than other sports cars, which you percieve to be better, even though you havent driven an i8, and think that the improved economy is irrelavent in the test?

[ORD]

Max_Torque said:

So, to be a sports car, it must handle just like a 911? Is that what you are saying? And if it doesn't then it isn't a "sports car"


(sorry, i'm still slightly confused as to why you seem to be so annoyed by a car you have no intention of buying and one that doesn't seem to suit you at all?)

"Person disagrees with me therefore must be all emotional". One can criticise something without wetting one's knickers about it.

No. But it must be orientated towards dynamics and fun - see the GT86, MX-5, 911, F-Type. They all handle differently but are all a lot "sportier" than the i8. You know as well as I do what, in general terms, makes something a sports car and that chronic understeer isn't part of the equation.

[anonymous-user]

ORD said:

Max_Torque said:

So, to be a sports car, it must handle just like a 911? Is that what you are saying? And if it doesn't then it isn't a "sports car"


(sorry, i'm still slightly confused as to why you seem to be so annoyed by a car you have no intention of buying and one that doesn't seem to suit you at all?)

"Person disagrees with me therefore must be all emotional". One can criticise something without wetting one's knickers about it.

No. But it must be orientated towards dynamics and fun - see the GT86, MX-5, 911, F-Type. They all handle differently but are all a lot "sportier" than the i8. You know as well as I do what, in general terms, makes something a sports car and that chronic understeer isn't part of the equation.

So, you say you're not "all emotional" but then use the phrase "chronic understeer"?

The i8 does not understeer in a "chronic" fashion. Yes, at the absolute limit, driven on track, the dynamic limitation is front end of the car. ie, the car understeers gently at the limit. For a road car, this is, imo, a very sensible thing! I again suggest you drive one before making any further comments.

[ORD]

Max_Torque said:

So, you say you're not "all emotional" but then use the phrase


"chronic understeer"? The i8 does not understeer in a "chronic" fashion. Yes, at the absolute limit, driven on track, the dynamic limitation is front end of the car. ie, the car understeers gently at the limit. For a road car, this is, imo, a very sensible thing!

Okie doke. Not what I took from the review, which was that it really was quite understeer-happy and unpredictable on the limit. I'm bored of trying to explain why I think that's a bad thing in something said to be a sports car.

[toppstuff]

ORD said:

Okie doke. Not what I took from the review, which was that it really was quite understeer-happy and unpredictable on the limit. I'm bored of trying to explain why I think that's a bad thing in something said to be a sports car.

I think the problem here is that you think the i8 is something it is not.

It is not a 911 competitor.

It is not a sports car.

I think it is more akin to a 6 series BMW or a Merc S class coupe.

I have had a brief go in one. I thought it was a lovely thing. The focus is on ease of use, effortless performance, refinement and design aesthetic. It is absolutely not a sports car. You may want it to be a sports car, in which case I can see why you are disappointed. But it isn't. In which case, it is doing exactly what the designers intended.

EV tech is not yet at the stage where designers are confident to start exposing the rough edges, with tight, snarly, unrefined drivetrains. They may be more exciting, but I think in an EV it would also be unacceptably harsh. The i8 is playing to the strengths of EV's - refinement and effortless delivery, rather than trousers on fire excitement. It isn't the car you think it is.

[DJRC]

ORD said:

Ultimately, your reasoning would mean that we can only discuss our own cars or cars we want and say why we like them

By and large I do. I don't really understand why you would give a fk about cars you think are st. I ignore the hot hatch stuff and family car stuff largely because I think they are st. I ignore the barge threads largely because I think they are st.

[ORD]

toppstuff said:

I think the problem here is that you think the i8 is something it is not.

It is not a 911 competitor.

It is not a sports car.

I think it is more akin to a 6 series BMW or a Merc S class coupe.

I have had a brief go in one. I thought it was a lovely thing. The focus is on ease of use, effortless performance, refinement and design aesthetic. It is absolutely not a sports car. You may want it to be a sports car, in which case I can see why you are disappointed. But it isn't. In which case, it is doing exactly what the designers intended.

EV tech is not yet at the stage where designers are confident to start exposing the rough edges, with tight, snarly, unrefined drivetrains. They may be more exciting, but I think in an EV it would also be unacceptably harsh. The i8 is playing to the strengths of EV's - refinement and effortless delivery, rather than trousers on fire excitement. It isn't the car you think it is.

I agree with you entirely, so I must not have made myself clear.

I would have thought "Spot on" if the review had ended with "It isn't a sports car, so we are going to class it along with other GTs".

I don't doubt that it is a lovely GT. I have no interest in GTs, but that isn't BMWs fault and is no real criticism of the car.

As it was, I ended up whining about how Autocar needs to stick to its policy of testing hybrids fairly and not making excuses. I should really have said "Why not just class it as a GT?". Probably a wasted opportunity to bh and moan

[Lowtimer]

ORD said:

I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together.

Toyota's long track record of perfectly reasonable hybrid residuals proves you wrong. As do the hordes of apparently unkillable older Priuses forming the bulk of London's minicab fleet. The first generation cars were always fairly rare but the much more common second generation cars are now up to 11 years old and appear to go on and on and on.

[ORD]

Lowtimer said:

ORD said:

I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together.

Toyota's long track record of perfectly reasonable hybrid residuals proves you wrong. As do the hordes of apparently unkillable older Priuses forming the bulk of London's minicab fleet. The first generation cars were always fairly rare but the much more common second generation cars are now up to 11 years old and appear to go on and on and on.

Nope. All that proves is that London has a congestion charge that is subject to exemptions.

Various factors keep the Prius residuals reasonable - exemption and being an arguably rational purchase for Eco types. Neithe applies to a £100k state of the art halo product. Top end mainstream brand cars cars generally lose value extremely fast unless they have long term desirability, which I just don't see for a car that is reliant on being at the cutting edge.

Who would buy one once you can get 300 miles on electric power alone on an electric sports car that weighs 1200kg? You won't buy it for the engine note, the handling or the steering, so it will be a dinosaur. I think the credible all eclectic sports car isn't far off, to be honest, and I think it will make the wavy hybrid cars pretty much obsolete overnight. A purely electric car will be able to be very light and have immediate power delivery at any speed - it could be an excellent drive (apart from steering, but I bet even that is fixable in time).

I'm a real optimist for how good to drive electric cars can be, which is why I don't think cutting them any slack is helpful or necessary.

All that said, being produced in small numbers might help!

[MrTrilby]

ORD said:

Nope. All that proves is that London has a congestion charge that is subject to exemptions.

Various factors keep the Prius residuals reasonable - exemption and being an arguably rational purchase for Eco types.

There's a whole world outside of London and it's congestion zone. I'm doubt Londoners who regularly commute in the congestion zone are propping up residual values of the Prius and Prius+ across the entire country, and I doubt our local taxi drivers have bought a Prius just in case they get a 120 mile fare to the centre of London.

ORD said:

Who would buy one once you can get 300 miles on electric power alone on an electric sports car that weighs 1200kg?

You mean like a Tesla now? That doesn't seem to have stopped BMW thinking there's a market to sell a new i8 at £100k. I think your worries are very sweet, but a little unfounded. That said, it doesn't sound like the best car for you - A BMW 116d has reasonable residuals if that's your concern.

[ORD]

MrTrilby said:

You mean like a Tesla now? That doesn't seem to have stopped BMW thinking there's a market to sell a new i8 at £100k. I think your worries are very sweet, but a little unfounded. That said, it doesn't sound like the best car for you - A BMW 116d has reasonable residuals if that's your concern.

Kinda except actually 300 miles and actually 1200kg

I couldn't give a st about residuals or mpg, but I'm not trying to sell a £100k car on the basis that it is 'economical' !

[kambites]

The current Prius has strong residuals because it's a very good car. The first couple of generations weren't great, but I really can't see how anyone can object to the current one's ability to do what it's designed to do. I'd certainly take a Prius over just about any diesel in the sector.

[anonymous-user]

FormulaE safety car, not being driven safely!


Looks fun enough to me^^^





(actually, you can see initially that it IS understeering a little before Nelson Piquet Jr. learns to give it a little 'bung' on the way in, but it's hardly a bad handling car ;-)

[Devil2575]

ORD said:

Why don't you test drive a diesel Fiesta from 2000 when looking for a new car? You know it's a turd, so you don't bother, I expect. It's the same principle at work here, albeit that the i8 is far from being a turd and I am not looking to buy a 2+2 anyway, so would be wasting someone's time. So,um, actually a crap analogy

I don't think I have ever test-driven a car and thought "Autocar was a bit harsh in terms of its dynamics"; on the contrary, I have only ever found the magazines to be far too lenient when it comes to criticising BMW and VAG cars (and, to a lesser extent, Mercs). If Autocar says the latest big thing from BMW handles badly, I'll take their word for it given that they usually do their very best not to say that even when it is kinda obvious.

It is a different question with lesser marques, incidentally, which often get a hard time.

But this is just subjective waffle.
You perceive that the magazine is biased and so infer your own conclusion on the handling from that.
It seems to me that this whole thread is based on very little other than your belief that BMW are given an easy ride.

[ORD]

Devil2575 said:

But this is just subjective waffle.
You perceive that the magazine is biased and so infer your own conclusion on the handling from that.
It seems to me that this whole thread is based on very little other than your belief that BMW are given an easy ride.

? The review says it handles badly. I quoted the review at length. Unless I were to think that Autocar were being biased AGAINST BMW (which I know from experience is very far from likely), I can safely assume that I wouldn't like it much.

[Devil2575]

ORD said:

Devil2575 said:

But this is just subjective waffle.
You perceive that the magazine is biased and so infer your own conclusion on the handling from that.
It seems to me that this whole thread is based on very little other than your belief that BMW are given an easy ride.

? The review says it handles badly. I quoted the review at length. Unless I were to think that Autocar were being biased AGAINST BMW (which I know from experience is very far from likely), I can safely assume that I wouldn't like it much.

No it doesn't, it says that it handles like a GT car not a sports car.