BMW i8 and giving hybrids an easy ride
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
No it doesn't, it says that it handles like a GT car not a sports car.
If any other 2+2 handled like a 2000kg GT (and not even a good one), it would be slaughtered by everyone on here! If I said that a sports car handled like an Audi saloon, would you not see that as a criticism?ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
No it doesn't, it says that it handles like a GT car not a sports car.
If any other 2+2 handled like a 2000kg GT (and not even a good one), it would be slaughtered by everyone on here! If I said that a sports car handled like an Audi saloon, would you not see that as a criticism?Some people on here would bang on about it, like you are it seems, but others might just consider that it is more of a GT car than a sports car. It's not the first 2+2 in that price bracket that has had comments like that made about it. in fact it's a comment frequently levelled at the Likes of Jaguar and Aston Martin isn't it and certainly the BMW 6 series.
For example:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2219...
Just a thought, but maybe BMW thought that the target market for the car would prefer GT like handling to an out and out sports car?
Edited by Devil2575 on Thursday 18th September 10:19
Devil2575 said:
It doesn't handle like an Audi Saloon though does it. The review says it handles like a GT car.
Some people on here would bang on about it, like you are it seems, but others might just consider that it is more of a GT car than a sports car. It's not the first 2+2 in that price bracket that has had comments like that made about it. in fact it's a comment frequently levelled at the Likes of Jaguar and Aston Martin isn't it and certainly the BMW 6 series.
For example:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2219...
Just a thought, but maybe BMW thought that the target market for the car would prefer GT like handling to an out and out sports car?
The handling is the result of (a) compromise in favour of efficiency (non-performance tyres) and (b) a fundamentally sub-optimal set up for a sports car (complex AWD system). I don't doubt for 1 second that BMW made it handle as neutrally as they could but couldn't stop it understeering and being a bit unpredictable on the limits.Some people on here would bang on about it, like you are it seems, but others might just consider that it is more of a GT car than a sports car. It's not the first 2+2 in that price bracket that has had comments like that made about it. in fact it's a comment frequently levelled at the Likes of Jaguar and Aston Martin isn't it and certainly the BMW 6 series.
For example:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2219...
Just a thought, but maybe BMW thought that the target market for the car would prefer GT like handling to an out and out sports car?
Edited by Devil2575 on Thursday 18th September 10:19
The DB9 was supposed to be a GT! Its got a massive V12 in its nose. BMW set out to make a mid-engined sports car, so there is simply no comparison. The BMW 6 series?! Its about as GT as they come and would never pretend otherwise or be compared to sports cars.
Devil2575 said:
Is the I8 supposed to be an out and out sports car?
Do you think they are trying to compete with the Porsche 911 in the handling stakes?
BMW says:Do you think they are trying to compete with the Porsche 911 in the handling stakes?
"With innovative LifeDrive vehicle architecture, the BMW i8 has ideal conditions for a weight-optimised design and boasts the lowest centre of gravity amongst all BMW vehicles. A perfect basis for the characteristics of a classical sports car...
A streamlined body, striking dynamic shape and low weight makes the BMW i8 undeniably a thoroughbred sports car."
Yep. I expect that they are realistic about how close they can get to living up to that, but that is the standard against which a car making those claims must be tested.
Pretty sure the evo comparison I flicked through against the 911 said a similar thing - very impressive tech and economy, handling fell apart after 8/10ths but apart from that it was a great bit of kit. And to be fair, evo knocked a star off because of this.
evo also raised a very good point at the end - this is just the product of BMW themselves. If the M Division were to get hold of it, it could be a very different story indeed (ideally with all that electric s
te ripped out and the V10 from the M5 stuck in the back, but I suspect that really is a pipe dream).
evo also raised a very good point at the end - this is just the product of BMW themselves. If the M Division were to get hold of it, it could be a very different story indeed (ideally with all that electric s
te ripped out and the V10 from the M5 stuck in the back, but I suspect that really is a pipe dream). bodhi said:
Pretty sure the evo comparison I flicked through against the 911 said a similar thing - very impressive tech and economy, handling fell apart after 8/10ths but apart from that it was a great bit of kit. And to be fair, evo knocked a star off because of this.
evo also raised a very good point at the end - this is just the product of BMW themselves. If the M Division were to get hold of it, it could be a very different story indeed (ideally with all that electric ste ripped out and the V10 from the M5 stuck in the back, but I suspect that really is a pipe dream).
The car is a handsome thing, the interior is good, and it has excellent aero. I do wonder what engine you could actually fit in it, though. Maybe a small, bespoke flat 6? If so, you could take out all of the electric stuff at the front, leaving it RWD and very light.evo also raised a very good point at the end - this is just the product of BMW themselves. If the M Division were to get hold of it, it could be a very different story indeed (ideally with all that electric s
te ripped out and the V10 from the M5 stuck in the back, but I suspect that really is a pipe dream). I dare someone to do this!
ORD said:
greygoose said:
I'm not sure why you are getting so heated about this, you have the choice to buy an i8 (or Autocar magazine) and the choice not to if you don't like them. BMW have sold out the i8 until next year so I am not sure your guesses at residuals are close to the mark. It isn't a 911 but it is an interesting, futuristic vehicle that obviously appeals to a lot of buyers.
Nor am I 
I guess it is this - if there will be only porridge for breakfast in the future, I can cope with that (as I quite like porridge), but don't tell me that porridge is as good as a full English when it comes to being a full English.
But your point can be taken to extremes - why do any of us discuss cars? We don't have to buy them. Ultimately, your reasoning would mean that we can only discuss our own cars or cars we want and say why we like them (which, given how many people buy cars that they hate, might be boring
)Given that the car industry is moving in not-very-PH directions quite quickly, it is unsurprising that PH contains a fair bit of negativity.
Nonetheless, point taken
If so, then I think it's a very rational concern and one that all PHers should have.
I like EVs. I would like all runabout, urban s
t boxes to be replaced by EVs. If I never heard a stty little transport box again I would be very happy. At the other end of the spectrum I find the performance hybrids fascinating and can see clearly that they bring a new dimention to driving. However, I find the Eco b
ks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving and would l love to see these loons sidelined so that any true benefits of EVs can remain non polluted by politics and agendas and deliver a range of complimentary driving experiences. ORD said:
I just read Autocar's review of the i8. I remember an article from some months back in which Autocar promised to rate and rank electric and hybrid cars without applying any special treatment; they would, it was said, give electric cars the same rating as they would were a petrol or diesel car to perform in the same way (obviously taking into account the lower fuel costs, etc).
Well, that has well and truly gone out of the window. The i8 apparently handles very badly for a sports 2+2 and even quite badly for a GT, yet it is apparently nonetheless almost perfect because it looks nice and gets 40mpg as opposed to the high 20s that you would get in a 911 or similar...so 10mpg and lower tax makes up for bad handling in a sports car? Hmmmmm. 10mpg on the kind of miles that cars like this do is, what, a few hundred quid a year on a car that is depreciating by about £25k a year. Get real!
It looks a lot like special treatment to me, even leaving aside that the idea that any hybrid will have strong residuals is a complete joke. I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together.
Wow, you really are an idiot. Try buying a 3 year old prius for 20% of its original value and let me know how you get on.Well, that has well and truly gone out of the window. The i8 apparently handles very badly for a sports 2+2 and even quite badly for a GT, yet it is apparently nonetheless almost perfect because it looks nice and gets 40mpg as opposed to the high 20s that you would get in a 911 or similar...so 10mpg and lower tax makes up for bad handling in a sports car? Hmmmmm. 10mpg on the kind of miles that cars like this do is, what, a few hundred quid a year on a car that is depreciating by about £25k a year. Get real!
It looks a lot like special treatment to me, even leaving aside that the idea that any hybrid will have strong residuals is a complete joke. I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together.
Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
DonkeyApple said:
However, I find the Eco bks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving
I think it's safe to say that^^^ isn't the "real" danger to the future of driving!!ks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving (which is over crowding, poor driving, and limited resources. <<< these are the things that are going to herald any big change in our private transport infrastructure)
Mr Gear said:
Wow, you really are an idiot. Try buying a 3 year old prius for 20% of its original value and let me know how you get on.
Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
Indeed. 3 year old Prius with average miles is about 15k retail in a main dealer.Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
What car indicates a residual value after 3 years of about 44%
Max_Torque said:
DonkeyApple said:
However, I find the Eco bks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving
I think it's safe to say that^^^ isn't the "real" danger to the future of driving!!ks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving (which is over crowding, poor driving, and limited resources. <<< these are the things that are going to herald any big change in our private transport infrastructure)
ORD said:
Mr Gear said:
Wow, you really are an idiot. Try buying a 3 year old prius for 20% of its original value and let me know how you get on.
Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
How's that charm working for you? What a hard man.Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
Devil2575 said:
To be fair to him you did post some made up numbers to try and make a point. It might be helpful if you check your facts before typing, or even before you form your opinions. Either you knew it wasn't true but didn't care or you simply chose to believe something because it suited your view.
To summarise your point - I think, which I do, that residuals on current expensive eco cars will be very bad and because the Prius (which isn't in a completely different market) has historically done well, that means I am somehow dishonest to hold my view?
Made up numbers? In the sense that I took a stab at what I think the figures might be? How else would you like me to do it?
There are too many people on PH who cant disagree without being personal, childish and internet hard men.
ORD said:
Devil2575 said:
To be fair to him you did post some made up numbers to try and make a point. It might be helpful if you check your facts before typing, or even before you form your opinions. Either you knew it wasn't true but didn't care or you simply chose to believe something because it suited your view.
To summarise your point - I think, which I do, that residuals on current expensive eco cars will be very bad and because the Prius (which isn't in a completely different market) has historically done well, that means I am somehow dishonest to hold my view?
Made up numbers? In the sense that I took a stab at what I think the figures might be? How else would you like me to do it?
There are too many people on PH who cant disagree without being personal, childish and internet hard men.
The Vauxhall Ampera has a residual value of 35% after 3 years.
The Lexus IS300h is 45% after 3 years.
Explain how these are very bad? Or did you mean to say that some ECO cars have poor residuals, which to be honest is also true if you remove the ECO part from that.
People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. You can dislike something all you want but it would be better to be up front about the actual reasons why you don't like them that simply making up numbers to suit.
All it says to me is that people decide on what they think then make up the evidence after to support their case.
Devil2575 said:
You had a stab? But you were completely wrong, out by a factor of more than 2 no less. I'd like people, not just you, to do it by actually knowing the numbers before posting them. They're not difficult to find.
The Vauxhall Ampera has a residual value of 35% after 3 years.
The Lexus IS300h is 45% after 3 years.
Explain how these are very bad? Or did you mean to say that some ECO cars have poor residuals, which to be honest is also true if you remove the ECO part from that.
People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. You can dislike something all you want but it would be better to be up front about the actual reasons why you don't like them that simply making up numbers to suit.
All it says to me is that people decide on what they think then make up the evidence after to support their case.
I didn't cite "evidence". I expressed an opinion. The fact that some hybrids and EVs have done OK to date tells you fairly little about residuals of new hybrids in 3 or 4 years. The pace of change is increasing, and the current crop will IN MY VIEW not do well once they are overtaken by the vastly better tech.The Vauxhall Ampera has a residual value of 35% after 3 years.
The Lexus IS300h is 45% after 3 years.
Explain how these are very bad? Or did you mean to say that some ECO cars have poor residuals, which to be honest is also true if you remove the ECO part from that.
People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. You can dislike something all you want but it would be better to be up front about the actual reasons why you don't like them that simply making up numbers to suit.
All it says to me is that people decide on what they think then make up the evidence after to support their case.
ORD said:
Mr Gear said:
Wow, you really are an idiot. Try buying a 3 year old prius for 20% of its original value and let me know how you get on.
Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
How's that charm working for you? What a hard man.Do some research before posting drivel in the future please.
t.I won't do it again...If you check your facts.
ORD said:
I didn't cite "evidence". I expressed an opinion. The fact that some hybrids and EVs have done OK to date tells you fairly little about residuals of new hybrids in 3 or 4 years. The pace of change is increasing, and the current crop will IN MY VIEW not do well once they are overtaken by the vastly better tech.
Indeed, it just happens to be an opinion that flies in the face of any current evidence. Current hybrids have reasonable residuals.What you are doing is pulling stuff out of your arse to suit your view.
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