BMW i8 and giving hybrids an easy ride

[ORD]

Devil2575 said:

Indeed, it just happens to be an opinion that flies in the face of any current evidence. Current hybrids have reasonable residuals.

What you are doing is pulling stuff out of your arse to suit your view.

Yeah. Much better to avoid having any opinions in case some real hard nut uses rude words on PH. Grow up.

[Devil2575]

ORD said:

Devil2575 said:

Indeed, it just happens to be an opinion that flies in the face of any current evidence. Current hybrids have reasonable residuals.

What you are doing is pulling stuff out of your arse to suit your view.

Yeah. Much better to avoid having any opinions in case some real hard nut uses rude words on PH. Grow up.

How about thinking before shooting your mouth off?

You've come up with a half baked opinion that is counter to the available data and now you're in a huff because a couple of us have called you on it.

You might want to learn some Critical thinking skills

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

[E65Ross]

Devil2575 said:

ORD said:

I didn't cite "evidence". I expressed an opinion. The fact that some hybrids and EVs have done OK to date tells you fairly little about residuals of new hybrids in 3 or 4 years. The pace of change is increasing, and the current crop will IN MY VIEW not do well once they are overtaken by the vastly better tech.

Indeed, it just happens to be an opinion that flies in the face of any current evidence. Current hybrids have reasonable residuals.

What you are doing is pulling stuff out of your arse to suit your view.

quite true

I think the problem is that he initially stated his opinion as fact, rather than opinion.

[ORD]

See whether you can spot any really subtle indications that I was expressing a view, prediction or wager, rather than fact:-

" I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together."

[DonkeyApple]

Max_Torque said:

DonkeyApple said:

However, I find the Eco bks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving

I think it's safe to say that^^^ isn't the "real" danger to the future of driving!!

(which is over crowding, poor driving, and limited resources. <<< these are the things that are going to herald any big change in our private transport infrastructure)

All resolved by pricing.

[DonkeyApple]

Devil2575 said:

Max_Torque said:

DonkeyApple said:

However, I find the Eco bks and the zealots screaming about saving dolphins a real danger to the future of driving

I think it's safe to say that^^^ isn't the "real" danger to the future of driving!!

(which is over crowding, poor driving, and limited resources. <<< these are the things that are going to herald any big change in our private transport infrastructure)

I also think his use of the word future is a bit ironic as what he is actually complaining about is the danger that driving will not remain the same as it is now.

Not quite. Not looking for it to remin as is now at all. Change is good and EVs at all levels increase our choices and options as well as bringing new and exciting driving experiences.

What I am wary of is the loss of all of this if we are forced by law to adopt a single option. Which is certainly something that some desire.

I see EVs as beneficial and adding to the market rather than being an enforced singular option. The growth in EV tech has arguably been and is the most exciting thing in the automotive arena for decades, if not longer.

[E65Ross]

ORD said:

See whether you can spot any really subtle indications that I was expressing a view, prediction or wager, rather than fact:-

" I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together."

Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.

Based on what information do you form that opinion?

[ORD]

E65Ross said:

Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.

Based on what information do you form that opinion?

I think that the current gen, especially at the higher end, will be utterly blown away by the tech that is coming up (partly from inside information, to be fair). A

lso, things like the Prius have clear appeal to middle-earners: no congestion charge, reasonably efficient, etc, which stops the price bottoming out. I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.

[E65Ross]

ORD said:

E65Ross said:

Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.

Based on what information do you form that opinion?

I think that the current gen, especially at the higher end, will be utterly blown away by the tech that is coming up (partly from inside information, to be fair). A

lso, things like the Prius have clear appeal to middle-earners: no congestion charge, reasonably efficient, etc, which stops the price bottoming out. I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.

How are teslas doing?

[ORD]

E65Ross said:

ORD said:

E65Ross said:

Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.

Based on what information do you form that opinion?

I think that the current gen, especially at the higher end, will be utterly blown away by the tech that is coming up (partly from inside information, to be fair). A

lso, things like the Prius have clear appeal to middle-earners: no congestion charge, reasonably efficient, etc, which stops the price bottoming out. I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.

How are teslas doing?

Tesla provide some kind of guarantee linked to financing, don't they? I admire the balls with which they are approaching things, but I don't think anything T does tells you a lot about medium term market forces. Tesla is essentially playing a massive confidence game, and good luck to them! It's essentially world domination or bust. I imagine that it'll be bust, but that's just my guess.

[Devil2575]

ORD said:

I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.

What you're talking about is the forces at play when any high end car depreciates.

The i8 is not special in that respect.

Sure there will be a better model out in a few years time, just as there is a better Ferrari or 911 out every few years which is always faster than the one it replaces.

[E65Ross]

ORD said:

E65Ross said:

ORD said:

E65Ross said:

Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.

Based on what information do you form that opinion?

I think that the current gen, especially at the higher end, will be utterly blown away by the tech that is coming up (partly from inside information, to be fair). A

lso, things like the Prius have clear appeal to middle-earners: no congestion charge, reasonably efficient, etc, which stops the price bottoming out. I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.

How are teslas doing?

Tesla provide some kind of guarantee linked to financing, don't they? I admire the balls with which they are approaching things, but I don't think anything T does tells you a lot about medium term market forces. Tesla is essentially playing a massive confidence game, and good luck to them! It's essentially world domination or bust. I imagine that it'll be bust, but that's just my guess.

And BMW don't offer a warranty or leasing option for the batteries.... Which is effectively your guarantee? So not sure what the difference is? I'm not sure, but I'd like to hear more on why you think the i8 should he vastly different to how the tesla cars are doing?

[Mr Gear]

E65Ross said:

And BMW don't offer a warranty or leasing option for the batteries.... Which is effectively your guarantee? So not sure what the difference is? I'm not sure, but I'd like to hear more on why you think the i8 should he vastly different to how the tesla cars are doing?

If I can get an i8 for 20% of the original value in 4 years time, I'll take it.

In fact, I'll take 2 at that price.

[erics]

I am amazed by this topic and the comments of the OP referring solely on reading car mags and making an opinion based on that.

Owning an Aston v12v, i went to test drive an i8 with a rather cynical view. A friend of mine had arranged the test drive for me. Guess what? I came back completely blown away!

A fresh car, built from scratch from a clean sheet of paper. Once you drive it (rather than read about it), you put aside any EV consideration. You just rate it based on its own merits. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. So much so that I sold the v12v the following week (which I owned for 2 years and really loved) and placed an order for the i8.

You know what? The v12v is hailed by journos as being one the great, great modern classics. But it is a bit cumbersome to drive in normal, real life. I mean journos take the cars out on great open roads and racetracks all the time. Normal human beings drive cars in a whole variety of situations. The i8 did shine brightly in 'normal' life for me.

It felt very special, bespoke, so crisp and modern. On all these aspects it outshone the Aston (!). The carbon chassis and bespoke built quality also outshone the Aston. It felt like an awful lot of car for £100k.

I owned various 996 turbo's in the past (normal and S versions). I owned 964rs, porsche gt3's, Astons.

I got to drive other exoticas such as a 458 or 430 scuderias and 360cs.

None of these gave me as much satisfaction as the i8! None of them triggered the 'i want one' element that I got with the i8.

This is all in my own opinion and not trying to convince otherwise. The difference being reading about things and experiencing things in real life...

[Devil2575]

erics said:

I am amazed by this topic and the comments of the OP referring solely on reading car mags and making an opinion based on that.

Owning an Aston v12v, i went to test drive an i8 with a rather cynical view. A friend of mine had arranged the test drive for me. Guess what? I came back completely blown away!

A fresh car, built from scratch from a clean sheet of paper. Once you drive it (rather than read about it), you put aside any EV consideration. You just rate it based on its own merits. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. So much so that I sold the v12v the following week (which I owned for 2 years and really loved) and placed an order for the i8.

You know what? The v12v is hailed by journos as being one the great, great modern classics. But it is a bit cumbersome to drive in normal, real life. I mean journos take the cars out on great open roads and racetracks all the time. Normal human beings drive cars in a whole variety of situations. The i8 did shine brightly in 'normal' life for me.

It felt very special, bespoke, so crisp and modern. On all these aspects it outshone the Aston (!). The carbon chassis and bespoke built quality also outshone the Aston. It felt like an awful lot of car for £100k.

I owned various 996 turbo's in the past (normal and S versions). I owned 964rs, porsche gt3's, Astons.

I got to drive other exoticas such as a 458 or 430 scuderias and 360cs.

None of these gave me as much satisfaction as the i8! None of them triggered the 'i want one' element that I got with the i8.

This is all in my own opinion and not trying to convince otherwise. The difference being reading about things and experiencing things in real life...

Good to hear from someone who has actualy driven one