BMW i8 and giving hybrids an easy ride
Discussion
Devil2575 said:
But this is just subjective waffle.
You perceive that the magazine is biased and so infer your own conclusion on the handling from that.
It seems to me that this whole thread is based on very little other than your belief that BMW are given an easy ride.
? The review says it handles badly. I quoted the review at length. Unless I were to think that Autocar were being biased AGAINST BMW (which I know from experience is very far from likely), I can safely assume that I wouldn't like it much.You perceive that the magazine is biased and so infer your own conclusion on the handling from that.
It seems to me that this whole thread is based on very little other than your belief that BMW are given an easy ride.
Devil2575 said:
No it doesn't, it says that it handles like a GT car not a sports car.
If any other 2+2 handled like a 2000kg GT (and not even a good one), it would be slaughtered by everyone on here! If I said that a sports car handled like an Audi saloon, would you not see that as a criticism?Devil2575 said:
It doesn't handle like an Audi Saloon though does it. The review says it handles like a GT car.
Some people on here would bang on about it, like you are it seems, but others might just consider that it is more of a GT car than a sports car. It's not the first 2+2 in that price bracket that has had comments like that made about it. in fact it's a comment frequently levelled at the Likes of Jaguar and Aston Martin isn't it and certainly the BMW 6 series.
For example:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2219...
Just a thought, but maybe BMW thought that the target market for the car would prefer GT like handling to an out and out sports car?
The handling is the result of (a) compromise in favour of efficiency (non-performance tyres) and (b) a fundamentally sub-optimal set up for a sports car (complex AWD system). I don't doubt for 1 second that BMW made it handle as neutrally as they could but couldn't stop it understeering and being a bit unpredictable on the limits.Some people on here would bang on about it, like you are it seems, but others might just consider that it is more of a GT car than a sports car. It's not the first 2+2 in that price bracket that has had comments like that made about it. in fact it's a comment frequently levelled at the Likes of Jaguar and Aston Martin isn't it and certainly the BMW 6 series.
For example:
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/2219...
Just a thought, but maybe BMW thought that the target market for the car would prefer GT like handling to an out and out sports car?
Edited by Devil2575 on Thursday 18th September 10:19
The DB9 was supposed to be a GT! Its got a massive V12 in its nose. BMW set out to make a mid-engined sports car, so there is simply no comparison. The BMW 6 series?! Its about as GT as they come and would never pretend otherwise or be compared to sports cars.
Devil2575 said:
Is the I8 supposed to be an out and out sports car?
Do you think they are trying to compete with the Porsche 911 in the handling stakes?
BMW says:Do you think they are trying to compete with the Porsche 911 in the handling stakes?
"With innovative LifeDrive vehicle architecture, the BMW i8 has ideal conditions for a weight-optimised design and boasts the lowest centre of gravity amongst all BMW vehicles. A perfect basis for the characteristics of a classical sports car...
A streamlined body, striking dynamic shape and low weight makes the BMW i8 undeniably a thoroughbred sports car."
Yep. I expect that they are realistic about how close they can get to living up to that, but that is the standard against which a car making those claims must be tested.
bodhi said:
Pretty sure the evo comparison I flicked through against the 911 said a similar thing - very impressive tech and economy, handling fell apart after 8/10ths but apart from that it was a great bit of kit. And to be fair, evo knocked a star off because of this.
evo also raised a very good point at the end - this is just the product of BMW themselves. If the M Division were to get hold of it, it could be a very different story indeed (ideally with all that electric s
te ripped out and the V10 from the M5 stuck in the back, but I suspect that really is a pipe dream).
The car is a handsome thing, the interior is good, and it has excellent aero. I do wonder what engine you could actually fit in it, though. Maybe a small, bespoke flat 6? If so, you could take out all of the electric stuff at the front, leaving it RWD and very light.evo also raised a very good point at the end - this is just the product of BMW themselves. If the M Division were to get hold of it, it could be a very different story indeed (ideally with all that electric s
te ripped out and the V10 from the M5 stuck in the back, but I suspect that really is a pipe dream). I dare someone to do this!
Devil2575 said:
To be fair to him you did post some made up numbers to try and make a point. It might be helpful if you check your facts before typing, or even before you form your opinions. Either you knew it wasn't true but didn't care or you simply chose to believe something because it suited your view.
To summarise your point - I think, which I do, that residuals on current expensive eco cars will be very bad and because the Prius (which isn't in a completely different market) has historically done well, that means I am somehow dishonest to hold my view?
Made up numbers? In the sense that I took a stab at what I think the figures might be? How else would you like me to do it?
There are too many people on PH who cant disagree without being personal, childish and internet hard men.
Devil2575 said:
You had a stab? But you were completely wrong, out by a factor of more than 2 no less. I'd like people, not just you, to do it by actually knowing the numbers before posting them. They're not difficult to find.
The Vauxhall Ampera has a residual value of 35% after 3 years.
The Lexus IS300h is 45% after 3 years.
Explain how these are very bad? Or did you mean to say that some ECO cars have poor residuals, which to be honest is also true if you remove the ECO part from that.
People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. You can dislike something all you want but it would be better to be up front about the actual reasons why you don't like them that simply making up numbers to suit.
All it says to me is that people decide on what they think then make up the evidence after to support their case.
I didn't cite "evidence". I expressed an opinion. The fact that some hybrids and EVs have done OK to date tells you fairly little about residuals of new hybrids in 3 or 4 years. The pace of change is increasing, and the current crop will IN MY VIEW not do well once they are overtaken by the vastly better tech.The Vauxhall Ampera has a residual value of 35% after 3 years.
The Lexus IS300h is 45% after 3 years.
Explain how these are very bad? Or did you mean to say that some ECO cars have poor residuals, which to be honest is also true if you remove the ECO part from that.
People are entitled to their own opinions, not their own facts. You can dislike something all you want but it would be better to be up front about the actual reasons why you don't like them that simply making up numbers to suit.
All it says to me is that people decide on what they think then make up the evidence after to support their case.
Devil2575 said:
Indeed, it just happens to be an opinion that flies in the face of any current evidence. Current hybrids have reasonable residuals.
What you are doing is pulling stuff out of your arse to suit your view.
Yeah. Much better to avoid having any opinions in case some real hard nut uses rude words on PH. Grow up.What you are doing is pulling stuff out of your arse to suit your view.
See whether you can spot any really subtle indications that I was expressing a view, prediction or wager, rather than fact:-
" I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together."
" I bet no hybrid will be worth more than 20% of its current value in 3 or 4 years time, because it will be little more than a technological relic with no track record of medium term reliability. I wouldn't fancy driving around in a 5 year old car with two propulsion systems, two gearboxes and some very complex electrickery to mesh it all together."
E65Ross said:
Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.
Based on what information do you form that opinion?
I think that the current gen, especially at the higher end, will be utterly blown away by the tech that is coming up (partly from inside information, to be fair). ABased on what information do you form that opinion?
lso, things like the Prius have clear appeal to middle-earners: no congestion charge, reasonably efficient, etc, which stops the price bottoming out. I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.
E65Ross said:
ORD said:
E65Ross said:
Fair enough, just a good job you aren't a betting man.... Because it would appear you would bet on such poor residuals, when all hybrid cars to date have done better than you think will happen.
Based on what information do you form that opinion?
I think that the current gen, especially at the higher end, will be utterly blown away by the tech that is coming up (partly from inside information, to be fair). ABased on what information do you form that opinion?
lso, things like the Prius have clear appeal to middle-earners: no congestion charge, reasonably efficient, etc, which stops the price bottoming out. I don't see the same forces at work on a 4 year-old i8 or any other very high end eco car. It will still be too expensive for the masses (or to be a credible money saving choice), yet it wont have any allure from the perspective of being state of the art or fast or whatever.
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