RE: Age for forgiveness: PH Blog

[Oddball RS]

"Pretty much everything is driven sideways, because that's the only way you can make these old sheds negotiate a corner. Often they are driven very sideways"


Your own answer, and there is a difference between Goodwood a B&Q car park or a road test, Road tests should be about how the car drives and feels pro's and con's not what the photographer wants.

[CharlieBird]

KevinBird said:

Little tyre smoke with old rubber so some how more acceptable than your tyre bonfires?

The car market is broken. If an idiot (me) can buy a car from a Official Porsche Centre in France, drive it home and sell 5 days later at a profit, equalling an average years salary, somethings wrong

Edited by KevinBird on Wednesday 17th September 11:47

The car market is even more broken when you consider how much more money you could've made if you'd kept it!!!! Not that I'm bitter or anything..

[XJ Flyer]

It would be fair to point out that the accepted quickest way to get those old cars through bends in the day wasn't sideways oversteer.It was the different situation of the four wheel drift.As shown being put to great effect by drivers like Hawthorn and Salvadori in period photos from the time.IE all four wheels sliding in the direction of the exit line required with very little,if any,opposite lock required.

[Bill]

Kawasicki said:

They're not? Where did you hear that?

Note the inverted commas, but name a single Tarmac car (from the last decade, say) that's quicker or more efficient going sideways. Even rally cars on Tarmac limit the sideways to slower bends.

I'm not saying it isn't fun, but it's not how they're designed.

[Kawasicki]

JohnGoodridge said:

How do you remember your heroes driving? Whenever I picture Fangio, or anyone from that era actually, it's in frozen in black and white, mid momentum oversteer, arms like hams holding opposite lock.

I have a slight issue with the idea that Fangio or anyone else who ever won a top level race with lots of oversteer, it just didn't happen. The cars were not oversteering everwhere, they were in near parallel four wheel drifts, which is quite different.

[otolith]

Bill said:

Note the inverted commas, but name a single Tarmac car (from the last decade, say) that's quicker or more efficient going sideways. Even rally cars on Tarmac limit the sideways to slower bends.

I'm not saying it isn't fun, but it's not how they're designed.

Surely that depends on whether they are designed to be quick or designed to be fun?

[XJ Flyer]

Kawasicki said:

I have a slight issue with the idea that Fangio or anyone else who ever won a top level race with lots of oversteer, it just didn't happen. The cars were not oversteering everwhere, they were in near parallel four wheel drifts, which is quite different.

^ This.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWp-0TuY4Sk

Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 17th September 13:06

[MonkeySpanker]

For the same reason some people buy toys but never play with them.

"They know the price of everything but the value of nothing."

[JTRacelogic]

Maybe it's the concept that taking something good to the extreme doesn't necessarily make it better. More Scarlett Johansson than Miley Cyrus.

Edited by JTRacelogic on Wednesday 17th September 13:05

[Richair]

I must have missed the comments criticising the way Mr Harris had driven the new M3, but seriously WTF!? I’m not drifter and nor do I really get it as a sport, but surely every discerning petrolhead wants to see the new M3 driven to death torturing its rear tyres for fun..? Or does everyone think traction control ASC etc. should be left firmly switched on these days? I’m being pedantic, but really I’m confused.

[suffolk009]

The whole power-sliding thing is a result of Clarkson burning tyres and shouting "Powuuuuur", or (for a smaller audience) Harris doing his trademark cornering then cut to his giggly "woooo-hoo-hoo".

It's not the same thing as driving vintage or classic racecars around a track for the best laptime.

I'm not interested in power-slides, and I don't want to see them.

[XJ Flyer]

Richair said:

I must have missed the comments criticising the way Mr Harris had driven the new M3, but seriously WTF!? I’m not drifter and nor do I really get it as a sport, but surely every discerning petrolhead wants to see the new M3 driven to death torturing its rear tyres for fun..? Or does everyone think traction control ASC etc. should be left firmly switched on these days? I’m being pedantic, but really I’m confused.

No its just that sideways isn't 'the quickest' way to drive something on tarmac and never was.

[Kawasicki]

Bill said:

Kawasicki said:

They're not? Where did you hear that?

Note the inverted commas, but name a single Tarmac car (from the last decade, say) that's quicker or more efficient going sideways. Even rally cars on Tarmac limit the sideways to slower bends.

I'm not saying it isn't fun, but it's not how they're designed.

You said "modern cars aren't "meant" to be driven sideways, racecar or not."

I haven't tuned the suspension on any racecars, but I have been involved with a few modern road cars. They are meant to be driven sideways, as in "it is part of the chassis tuning and sign-off". What do you think happens when you get 10 engineers and a pile of tyres and a single use track. Do you think they say "now, we must ensure that none of us drives this thing sideways, because we would hate to have more work to do" or do you think they say "ok, so most customers don't drive sideways, but lets make sure this thing is nice and forgiving/linear/easy to drive in the neutral to oversteer zone". This doesn't just happen on sports cars, buy on the most unsporting banal cars as well. Hell, the hardest driven cars are often the pauper spec base models.

[CedricN]

Well, diagonal ply tyres likes large slip angles, since grip doesnt drops of when the tyre slides, quite the opposite. Thats why old cars, including f1 cars were ran with funny looking slip angles. So of course its ok to run an old car with some slip, because thats how you race it

[Chris Harris]

XJ Flyer said:

It would be fair to point out that the accepted quickest way to get those old cars through bends in the day wasn't sideways oversteer.It was the different situation of the four wheel drift.As shown being put to great effect by drivers like Hawthorn and Salvadori in period photos from the time.IE all four wheels sliding in the direction of the exit line required with very little,if any,opposite lock required.

Difference now is that the cars have much more power than in period. Simply impossible to drive the E-Type I raced in the TT without large amounts of oversteer.

[suffolk009]

Chris Harris said:

Difference now is that the cars have much more power than in period. Simply impossible to drive the E-Type I raced in the TT without large amounts of oversteer.

Throw me the keys. I'll let you know.

[DeAp]

Drifting is still common in the world of racing. Check Harris bmw m3 rally car vid for a good measure... but it's not just this vid but almost every rally including tarmac ones (watch how many time they pull the handbrake and not just on hairpins). It's also still common on track racing in the rain to bring heat and therefore grip to the tires (also from personal experience racing at the "ring").
The hooliganism part comes from all of as been childish in the better meaning of the word. Since the cars of today offer high ratio of grip over traction compare with the cars of the past, leave us with the fact that in order to indulge on a good skid we must initiate the stupid part inside us

As for the milage, our prospective change we the car in question is a classic rather just old, cause that make us believe that a mint example had been overhauled extensively and not just maintained.


P.S. Chris keep your sideways fun as is, not that your asking anyone here

[Hasbeen]

XJ Flyer said:

It would be fair to point out that the accepted quickest way to get those old cars through bends in the day wasn't sideways oversteer.It was the different situation of the four wheel drift.As shown being put to great effect by drivers like Hawthorn and Salvadori in period photos from the time.IE all four wheels sliding in the direction of the exit line required with very little,if any,opposite lock required.

This is a fact.

I was racing these things in the day. No one quick slid mk1 & 2 Jags around anymore than they had to. Too much sliding & you ran out of tyres, & we weren't set up for pit stops in most racing.

In races like the Bathurst 500 tyre changes, with 5 stud wheels had to be accomplished during fuel filling. Extra tyre stops, in those days of no safety cars to let you catch up for free, put you effectively out of the race.

In F1s & 2s we were on the limit of a set of tyres in a 100 mile race, even doing most of the race well under 9 tenths. I recall Jack Brabham having a quick almost stop at the slowest point of Warwick farm to check if his tyres were safe, when he thought he saw bare cord in his right mirror in a hundred mile race.

From what I've seen of classic/historic racing today, many drivers are just having fun, & playing games. They are not trying to drive the cars as seriously as the top drivers drove them, or are not competent to do so anyway.

[matchmaker]

And it's a Mk2 Jag, not a Mk1...

[gconneely92]

Going slightly off topic here, but I find it interesting how buying any used car - people will start thinking "ooh err it's a bit high mileage" the second it passes the 100k mark. Look at how it's been looked after, cars are more than capable of lasting way beyond this figure.