RE: Age for forgiveness: PH Blog
Discussion
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Difference now is that the cars have much more power than in period. Simply impossible to drive the E-Type I raced in the TT without large amounts of oversteer.
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Chris answering his own question again.
It's to do with the amount of power vs available grip, shirley? 300bhp through relatively narrow, tall tyres = slides. 300bhp through 35 profile, sticky steamroller tyres = no big deal.
Wasn't that how racers stayed alive in period? They slid the car progressively with very little chance of it gripping and flipping hence no rollbars.
For what it's worth Chris, I watched you race the E-Type on television and it looked fantastic (mind you that Iso was quick
).
In short, the older cars had crappy tyres but still quite pokey engines so spinning up wasn't a deliberate option as it is with modern cars. At the same time, 4 wheel drifting in MkIIs and also Minis was the quicker way through some corners. Modern cars, this is not the case.
So, one can argue that a spot of slippage is a requirement in older cars whereas it is a deliberate choice that makes progress slower in modern cars.
Re, getting stuck behind a classic v a repmobile, well that's pretty simple, one brings joy and pleasure and the latter brings nothing at all to the table in return for getting in your way.
So, one can argue that a spot of slippage is a requirement in older cars whereas it is a deliberate choice that makes progress slower in modern cars.
Re, getting stuck behind a classic v a repmobile, well that's pretty simple, one brings joy and pleasure and the latter brings nothing at all to the table in return for getting in your way.
As others have said, Chris, for the most part you have answered your own question. It is really a combination of several things. Let's try and analyze them:-
1) The whole context that is The Goodwood Revival meeting.
As another poster has said, "people smile and nobody drops litter". This is a version of "the right crowd and no crowding" that was claimed for the Brooklands circuit, back in the day for an earlier generation. Every year, one of our party mutters something like "What, £65 quid for a ticket" - and then that same person, whilst sitting in the queues on the way home, will be enthusing to the rest of the car about what a great day out it is for a petrolhead.
The organizers are also to be congratulated for ensuring that when you do have some litter to dispose of, there always seems to be a bin, moreover a bin which is not full to overflowing, ten steps or so from where you are. So, since Goodwood has thought of my needs, I will reciprocate by thinking of theirs and do the tidy thing. I'll bet it saves them a fortune on the post-weekend clear-up, as well.
2) Affection. Most of the cars that are being raced are those that we probably lusted after and could never afford in our youth. Still can't afford them now, of course, but the fact that everyone out there is not holding anything back in an object that is worth more than my house (and yours added in, come to that) engenders respect. None of you are behaving like the equivalent of the d******d who drives 2 metres from my rear bumper in the outside lane of the M1, or, tyresmokes his way round our local Sainsbury's car park.
3) Visibility. The older cars have narrower tyres and no ground effects to speak of. Cue behavioural styles like the four wheel drift. It is not that a modern F1 car won't drift; the TV slow-motion replays show that they do, but, it is practically invisible to the trackside eye (especially when you are also being kept back 200+ metres from the actual track at some modern TILKE designed place.)
Finally, the drivers of the classics are sitting up where I can see what you are doing with the steering wheel inputs. Thus, I can, as a fellow-driver, get a full appreciation of the skill level that you are putting into your work out there. It is not that Hamilton & co aren't doing the same things - mostly they are, but I cannot see it and so cannot so readily appreciate the skills that are being put to work.
4) Accessibility. Unlike the F1 crowd and most modern motorsport, at Goodwood there is a sporting chance that I will bump into you or another driver in the paddock and get the opportunity of a brief word. Fat chance of that in most modern autosport. A couple of years back at Goodwood I was admiring the 1930's Auto-Union F1 car of the time and suddenly realized that the dapper-suited gent leaning against it, and being left entirely on his own, was none other than Jacky Ickx. A most pleasant short conversation then ensued, after which I left him alone as he had to go and get his race gear on, ready to to demonstrate the car. (Was an absolute gent, by the way - so do meet your heroes if you get the chance).
5) The rose-tinted glasses effect. Most of the Goodwood crowd look to be of more mature years, so, it has to be admitted that in part at least we are re-living our youth; thus a classic car being ragged fits into that mindset whereas a modern one, being similarly driven, must be being conducted by a young numpty with more money than sense. This may well be not be true, but there we are.
1) The whole context that is The Goodwood Revival meeting.
As another poster has said, "people smile and nobody drops litter". This is a version of "the right crowd and no crowding" that was claimed for the Brooklands circuit, back in the day for an earlier generation. Every year, one of our party mutters something like "What, £65 quid for a ticket" - and then that same person, whilst sitting in the queues on the way home, will be enthusing to the rest of the car about what a great day out it is for a petrolhead.
The organizers are also to be congratulated for ensuring that when you do have some litter to dispose of, there always seems to be a bin, moreover a bin which is not full to overflowing, ten steps or so from where you are. So, since Goodwood has thought of my needs, I will reciprocate by thinking of theirs and do the tidy thing. I'll bet it saves them a fortune on the post-weekend clear-up, as well.
2) Affection. Most of the cars that are being raced are those that we probably lusted after and could never afford in our youth. Still can't afford them now, of course, but the fact that everyone out there is not holding anything back in an object that is worth more than my house (and yours added in, come to that) engenders respect. None of you are behaving like the equivalent of the d******d who drives 2 metres from my rear bumper in the outside lane of the M1, or, tyresmokes his way round our local Sainsbury's car park.
3) Visibility. The older cars have narrower tyres and no ground effects to speak of. Cue behavioural styles like the four wheel drift. It is not that a modern F1 car won't drift; the TV slow-motion replays show that they do, but, it is practically invisible to the trackside eye (especially when you are also being kept back 200+ metres from the actual track at some modern TILKE designed place.)
Finally, the drivers of the classics are sitting up where I can see what you are doing with the steering wheel inputs. Thus, I can, as a fellow-driver, get a full appreciation of the skill level that you are putting into your work out there. It is not that Hamilton & co aren't doing the same things - mostly they are, but I cannot see it and so cannot so readily appreciate the skills that are being put to work.
4) Accessibility. Unlike the F1 crowd and most modern motorsport, at Goodwood there is a sporting chance that I will bump into you or another driver in the paddock and get the opportunity of a brief word. Fat chance of that in most modern autosport. A couple of years back at Goodwood I was admiring the 1930's Auto-Union F1 car of the time and suddenly realized that the dapper-suited gent leaning against it, and being left entirely on his own, was none other than Jacky Ickx. A most pleasant short conversation then ensued, after which I left him alone as he had to go and get his race gear on, ready to to demonstrate the car. (Was an absolute gent, by the way - so do meet your heroes if you get the chance).
5) The rose-tinted glasses effect. Most of the Goodwood crowd look to be of more mature years, so, it has to be admitted that in part at least we are re-living our youth; thus a classic car being ragged fits into that mindset whereas a modern one, being similarly driven, must be being conducted by a young numpty with more money than sense. This may well be not be true, but there we are.
V8RX7 said:
I think that GIF shows that old cars aren't exempt
I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
Not sure, in the early 60's my old man took a series of lap records around the UK in a MkII as he established that there were corners that were faster if you drifted them, he did likewise in Minis a few years later and only lost the records when the other Cooper drivers began to drift the right corners also. Namely Gerry Marshall.I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
We had a annual car club meeting at a track in Lincolnshire - we were 'banned' from drifting. the following day was a 'classic rally' on the track with people paying for rides for charity
The many of the drivers and especially the escort drivers were effectively drifting round the track.
Double standards.
The many of the drivers and especially the escort drivers were effectively drifting round the track.
Double standards.
DonkeyApple said:
V8RX7 said:
I think that GIF shows that old cars aren't exempt
I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
Not sure, in the early 60's my old man took a series of lap records around the UK in a MkII as he established that there were corners that were faster if you drifted them, he did likewise in Minis a few years later and only lost the records when the other Cooper drivers began to drift the right corners also. Namely Gerry Marshall.I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
I bet he didn't throw it side to side down the straight though.
NotNormal said:
...coupled with that number plate, the cynic in me thinks it was more of a publicity stunt by JLR to get people into old jags
Part of a publicity stunt, mebbe, but to get people into NEW Jags, not old ones - and WAY before JLR days.
matchmaker said:
And it's a Mk2 Jag, not a Mk1...
With pillars that thick...?It was never 'ok' to slide a car,even in the old days;
In 1983 I had a vauxhall chevette. Bog std 1.3,no stripes,no furry dice,nothing.
On they way from work was a small roundabout,where I'd practice my scandanavian flick technique. As I did this every few days I was in control of the slide, and as my speed was circa 15 mph not exactly being a hooligan. In my opinion.
Well,one day while practicing to be Roger Clark,there was a policeman on foot. He called me over and gave me a right b
king!
And I never did it again.....
In 1983 I had a vauxhall chevette. Bog std 1.3,no stripes,no furry dice,nothing.
On they way from work was a small roundabout,where I'd practice my scandanavian flick technique. As I did this every few days I was in control of the slide, and as my speed was circa 15 mph not exactly being a hooligan. In my opinion.
Well,one day while practicing to be Roger Clark,there was a policeman on foot. He called me over and gave me a right b
king!And I never did it again.....
Mark Benson said:
Article said:
Pretty much everything is driven sideways, because that's the only way you can make these old sheds negotiate a corner. Often they are driven very sideways, because you quickly learn that you don't lose much lap time, and the crowd loves the spectacle.
And, finally, I've reached the point I want to make. Why is some chap on the lock-stops through Woodcote in a Mk1 Jag considered the very essence of Goodwood and 'real' driving yet posting a video of the latest M3 doing the same seen as childish, unrealistic and puerile?
Didn't you just answer your own question?And, finally, I've reached the point I want to make. Why is some chap on the lock-stops through Woodcote in a Mk1 Jag considered the very essence of Goodwood and 'real' driving yet posting a video of the latest M3 doing the same seen as childish, unrealistic and puerile?
It's what old cars do. Generally new cars don't do it. So an old car sliding, particularly in a race, is good and shows the driver is pushing and getting the most out of it. In a new car, just for the sake of it on a track or road for a video it doesn't really show much other than the driver was pushing the car beyond the level it is designed to do and we probably largely know that it isn't the quickest rate of travel. However, in a race situation a slide in a modern car is acceptable - it is a large part of the appeal of races such as Bathurst for me.
Time and place and reason are the main factors for me. Watching video of cars sliding continuously gets boring - see it once for one car and a few more minutes of it doesn't add anything else as far as I'm concerned.
Turbobanana said:
Interesting article, in that you are not comparing like-for-like.
The old cars in question are engaged in racing - pushing to the limit in an attempt to beat the other guy (or girl) which, by nature of their age / design / technical limitations, involves a certain amount of sliding. We all love that.
You then talk about a modern car, driven in isolation on an (apparently) empty race track and provoked beyond "normal" limits - behaviour which in no way reflects what the car will be doing in the real world for 99.9% of its existence, in most cases.
I suspect that the modern car, race prepared and on track with a quantity of similarly prepared contemporaries driven to (and beyond) its limits, would attract no derision whatsoever.
Horses for courses.
This for me is key. If you were to compare like for like, and the likes of Classic and Sports car produced videos of them going round Anglesey on the lock stops in a Daytona, I suspect the majority of comments would be about abusing the poor old thing. The old cars in question are engaged in racing - pushing to the limit in an attempt to beat the other guy (or girl) which, by nature of their age / design / technical limitations, involves a certain amount of sliding. We all love that.
You then talk about a modern car, driven in isolation on an (apparently) empty race track and provoked beyond "normal" limits - behaviour which in no way reflects what the car will be doing in the real world for 99.9% of its existence, in most cases.
I suspect that the modern car, race prepared and on track with a quantity of similarly prepared contemporaries driven to (and beyond) its limits, would attract no derision whatsoever.
Horses for courses.
For the record, I wouldnt complain.
V8RX7 said:
DonkeyApple said:
V8RX7 said:
I think that GIF shows that old cars aren't exempt
I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
Not sure, in the early 60's my old man took a series of lap records around the UK in a MkII as he established that there were corners that were faster if you drifted them, he did likewise in Minis a few years later and only lost the records when the other Cooper drivers began to drift the right corners also. Namely Gerry Marshall.I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
I bet he didn't throw it side to side down the straight though.
V8RX7 said:
I think that GIF shows that old cars aren't exempt
I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
It was the last lap just prior to crossing the finishing line. Lap time didn't come into it.I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
sideways man said:
It was never 'ok' to slide a car,even in the old days;
In 1983 I had a vauxhall chevette. Bog std 1.3,no stripes,no furry dice,nothing.
On they way from work was a small roundabout,where I'd practice my scandanavian flick technique. As I did this every few days I was in control of the slide, and as my speed was circa 15 mph not exactly being a hooligan. In my opinion.
Well,one day while practicing to be Roger Clark,there was a policeman on foot. He called me over and gave me a right bking!
And I never did it again.....
That reminds me of the time (many years ago at Uni) when I was following a good friend of mine, who drove his Alfetta GTV "enthusiastically" round a corner. A copper pulled him over. In 1983 I had a vauxhall chevette. Bog std 1.3,no stripes,no furry dice,nothing.
On they way from work was a small roundabout,where I'd practice my scandanavian flick technique. As I did this every few days I was in control of the slide, and as my speed was circa 15 mph not exactly being a hooligan. In my opinion.
Well,one day while practicing to be Roger Clark,there was a policeman on foot. He called me over and gave me a right b
king!And I never did it again.....
Keen to assert that he was not breaking the speed limit, my friend said, "I was on the limit, officer."
"I could bloody see that!" said the policeman.
rgracin said:
V8RX7 said:
I think that GIF shows that old cars aren't exempt
I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
It was the last lap just prior to crossing the finishing line. Lap time didn't come into it.I saw that as stupid
Maximum attack and having fun, around a corner - fantastic
Pointlessly throwing a car around meaning a slower lap time - stupid
NotNormal said:
The chap in the Jag at Revival obviously decided that once he was not going to contend the lead he was showboating for the crowd, we watched his sideways activity for a number of laps
NotNormal said:
To the point that, coupled with that number plate, the cynic in me thinks it was more of a publicity stunt by JLR to get people into old jags what with their more recent high profile attempts to raise awareness of their older cars. 
Top GIF.BUY 1 and BUY 12 are noteworthy historic cars in their own right. The owner of BUY 1 has been doing that at the revival for donkeys.
(Ready fro squadron of parrots if I missed the point)
My experience is not of the oversteer, but of another smaller aspect of the article - the way people will treat an old car 'holding them up'.
My 1958 car will still gallop along an A road at 60mph (just!!) so I tend to not get many people moaning about being behind me. Where I get the issues are at those moments when my car (non-sync 1st gear) insists on being stopped in order to get 1st, when 2nd is not quite enough to keep me rolling. People get a little narked at me not being as immediate as modern cars.
I say people - I mean (from experience, sorry) middle-aged women in Nissan Quash-thighs.
That particular demographic tend to ride my bumper (not realising that my bloody old car has drum brakes that mean I have to start braking a LOT earlier than they do), look exasperated when I take a nano-second longer to engage first and pull away than normal...generally just get narked at my existence on the road.
It's a little un-nerving. They have ZERO respect for the old car in as much as they seem to think I will be able to stop, go, turn like a modern car and as such afford me the same road space and reaction time. I swear, if I get hit it's going to be by a woman in a Nissan.
Lack of understanding, I guess..
The opposite of that is almost every single male driver above the age of 30. The demographic that gives my old girl space and time to get down the road. They also have a big grin on their faces and nod in appreciation when they see me - even if I've held them up at some point.
I think by and large, people are generally pleased to see an old car on the road. However, I imagine that (on the public road) driving like a knob is driving like a knob - new or old car. I could easily fit a dirty big engine to the back of my car and leave huge 11's as I left every set of lights...however, I suspect I would also reduce the number of people who smiled at me when I drive the old girl.
My 1958 car will still gallop along an A road at 60mph (just!!) so I tend to not get many people moaning about being behind me. Where I get the issues are at those moments when my car (non-sync 1st gear) insists on being stopped in order to get 1st, when 2nd is not quite enough to keep me rolling. People get a little narked at me not being as immediate as modern cars.
I say people - I mean (from experience, sorry) middle-aged women in Nissan Quash-thighs.
That particular demographic tend to ride my bumper (not realising that my bloody old car has drum brakes that mean I have to start braking a LOT earlier than they do), look exasperated when I take a nano-second longer to engage first and pull away than normal...generally just get narked at my existence on the road.
It's a little un-nerving. They have ZERO respect for the old car in as much as they seem to think I will be able to stop, go, turn like a modern car and as such afford me the same road space and reaction time. I swear, if I get hit it's going to be by a woman in a Nissan.
Lack of understanding, I guess..
The opposite of that is almost every single male driver above the age of 30. The demographic that gives my old girl space and time to get down the road. They also have a big grin on their faces and nod in appreciation when they see me - even if I've held them up at some point.
I think by and large, people are generally pleased to see an old car on the road. However, I imagine that (on the public road) driving like a knob is driving like a knob - new or old car. I could easily fit a dirty big engine to the back of my car and leave huge 11's as I left every set of lights...however, I suspect I would also reduce the number of people who smiled at me when I drive the old girl.
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