RE: Age for forgiveness: PH Blog
Discussion
The Revival isn't about big slides like some sort of Pebble Beach Formula D, it's trying to master a bucking bronco and go fast. Like that video from Spa of the guy in the old 911 which looks like it's trying to shoot him off the track at every opportunity. He's not showboating, just trying to keep it on the black stuff.
If you are sliding for the sake of sliding in a video then it shows skill (and as you say, looks good) but some may not consider it needed when talking about a car. I think being so proficient at it, making it look easy, in a very competent car also adds to the possible sense of pointlessness.
For me, seeing cars like the F50 and P1 being chucked around with obvious concentration and sense of jeopardy makes the achivement of sliding them all the greater.
Speaking of jeopardy, the other aspect of the Revival is not just the slip angle, but also the unforgiving circuit and the knowledge of what the repair bill might be if it all goes wrong.
If you are sliding for the sake of sliding in a video then it shows skill (and as you say, looks good) but some may not consider it needed when talking about a car. I think being so proficient at it, making it look easy, in a very competent car also adds to the possible sense of pointlessness.
For me, seeing cars like the F50 and P1 being chucked around with obvious concentration and sense of jeopardy makes the achivement of sliding them all the greater.
Speaking of jeopardy, the other aspect of the Revival is not just the slip angle, but also the unforgiving circuit and the knowledge of what the repair bill might be if it all goes wrong.
I am surprised no one has brought up rally cars. This is not about old or new, it's about whether or not sliding is the fastest way around the track. On loose surfaces, as with old cars, sliding is necessary.
Furthermore, drifting a new supercar for show is pretty much like setting fire to a pile of cash. It's amusing, but people will say that it's outside good taste. Most people don't have a stack of tires provided by a manufacturer to burn through. Few tracks will allow drifting with other cars on track because it's not safe to be drifting in traffic. So it is somewhat irrelevant to most people's driving.
To review, drifting a new car on tarmac is:
a) Not faster
b) A showy destruction of expensive parts
c) Irrelevant to most people's driving
I am not against a bit of hooliganism for the cameras, but I can certainly see why it would qualify as yobbish.
Furthermore, drifting a new supercar for show is pretty much like setting fire to a pile of cash. It's amusing, but people will say that it's outside good taste. Most people don't have a stack of tires provided by a manufacturer to burn through. Few tracks will allow drifting with other cars on track because it's not safe to be drifting in traffic. So it is somewhat irrelevant to most people's driving.
To review, drifting a new car on tarmac is:
a) Not faster
b) A showy destruction of expensive parts
c) Irrelevant to most people's driving
I am not against a bit of hooliganism for the cameras, but I can certainly see why it would qualify as yobbish.
Edited by articulatedj on Wednesday 17th September 15:24
Fascinated by the idea that some cars are largely mileage proof in terms of values. I can imagine a 550 Maranello with patchy service history might cost more to fix than it is worth. Is that a factor? When the values go higher then the repair bills can be recouped, just like the lightweight E-type that recently got unfolded.
As far as I'm concerned, driving sideways in a safe manner (in a safe place) is perfectly legitimate, whether the car's from the 40's or just rolled off production. It's 'wannabe-racers' taking sliding to the streets in a dangerous fashion that I disagree with!
As far as mileage is concerned... No idea!
As far as mileage is concerned... No idea!
Goodwood revival, Silverstone Classic. Old cars being pushed to the limit, and sometimes showboating. All great fun. On the showing off side, if you're in the position where you've got a place, and you're unlikely to improve on it or be overtaken, then why not showboat a bit for the crowd?
Clarkson et al driving cars sideways on Top Gear with smoke pouring out - just a bit boring really - they do it every week. The bit I get interested in is when the Stig tries to go as fast as possible.
If you want sliding, look up Garry McCoy on you tube. That takes some cojones.
Clarkson et al driving cars sideways on Top Gear with smoke pouring out - just a bit boring really - they do it every week. The bit I get interested in is when the Stig tries to go as fast as possible.
If you want sliding, look up Garry McCoy on you tube. That takes some cojones.
Of course not all newer cars are stuck to the road.
Most unstable thing I can recall driving was an early Lotus Elise. Even on roads that were a little damp, oversteer and general sliding dramatics seemed inevitable on every journey.
Which of course was part of the appeal.
Old cars on cross ply tires are also rather squirrel like.
Most unstable thing I can recall driving was an early Lotus Elise. Even on roads that were a little damp, oversteer and general sliding dramatics seemed inevitable on every journey.
Which of course was part of the appeal.
Old cars on cross ply tires are also rather squirrel like.
The technical aspects of driving sideways have been covered in this thread at great detail, but the emotional aspect for me is one of car control.
In a relatively undergripped car (such as the old race cars we're all referring to) there is a significant element of driver skill involved in carving an optimum line with a bit of wiggle going on at the wheels, whereas in something modern and overpowered there's not as much perceived skill involved in simply mashing the pedal and making clouds. One's a display of the driver's skill and to an extent restraint, the other is a brash display of a vehicle's power.
I think people by and large would sympathise more with what's perceived as a display of control than a flaunting of power, especially when modern tyre-smoke machines are almost universally looked on as expensive so there's a jealousy aspect too.
I personally like a well controlled slide of any magnitude in any car, be it old, new, delicate or brash, but I always compare a modern Dodge Challenger R/T I drove in the states with an S-Class I saw an old boy driving in the snow a few years ago. The Challenger was a V8 auto, and making clouds and lobbing it sideways was as easy as pushing a button and mashing the right pedal with a bit of seesawing on the steering wheel. I loved it but I'm sure I looked a t
t, given it was bright orange - an attention seeking car doing brash attention seeking things. The chap in the old S-class on the other hand pulled into an empty car park covered in snow, looked about to make sure it was clear, then woofled the engine maybe 1000rpm above idle and put on about 20 degrees of opposite lock and glided the car at no more than 10 mph in a perfectly smooth arc round the car park a few times before calmly driving off. It was one of the most beautiful pieces of driving I'd seen in public and the perfect model of skill, control and restraint behind the wheel.
In a relatively undergripped car (such as the old race cars we're all referring to) there is a significant element of driver skill involved in carving an optimum line with a bit of wiggle going on at the wheels, whereas in something modern and overpowered there's not as much perceived skill involved in simply mashing the pedal and making clouds. One's a display of the driver's skill and to an extent restraint, the other is a brash display of a vehicle's power.
I think people by and large would sympathise more with what's perceived as a display of control than a flaunting of power, especially when modern tyre-smoke machines are almost universally looked on as expensive so there's a jealousy aspect too.
I personally like a well controlled slide of any magnitude in any car, be it old, new, delicate or brash, but I always compare a modern Dodge Challenger R/T I drove in the states with an S-Class I saw an old boy driving in the snow a few years ago. The Challenger was a V8 auto, and making clouds and lobbing it sideways was as easy as pushing a button and mashing the right pedal with a bit of seesawing on the steering wheel. I loved it but I'm sure I looked a t
t, given it was bright orange - an attention seeking car doing brash attention seeking things. The chap in the old S-class on the other hand pulled into an empty car park covered in snow, looked about to make sure it was clear, then woofled the engine maybe 1000rpm above idle and put on about 20 degrees of opposite lock and glided the car at no more than 10 mph in a perfectly smooth arc round the car park a few times before calmly driving off. It was one of the most beautiful pieces of driving I'd seen in public and the perfect model of skill, control and restraint behind the wheel.Vocal Minority said:
NotNormal said:
To the point that, coupled with that number plate, the cynic in me thinks it was more of a publicity stunt by JLR to get people into old jags what with their more recent high profile attempts to raise awareness of their older cars. 
Top GIF.BUY 1 and BUY 12 are noteworthy historic cars in their own right. The owner of BUY 1 has been doing that at the revival for donkeys.
(Ready fro squadron of parrots if I missed the point)
I don’t have much to add to the discussion but I saw this video mentioned above and think this thread just isn’t complete without linking it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
apparently still the fastest qualifying lap ever for a 911 2.0 on CR65s, just over 3 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvDD8V9Liq8
apparently still the fastest qualifying lap ever for a 911 2.0 on CR65s, just over 3 minutes.
Quote:
'Why is some chap on the lock-stops through Woodcote in a Mk1 Jag considered the very essence of Goodwood and 'real' driving yet posting a video of the latest M3 doing the same seen as childish, unrealistic and puerile?'
I don't think that.
If there's any snobbery it's comes from the 'right, safe way' to be an old, wealthy boy racer driving a Mk1 Jag at Goodwoord and the 'wrong, unsafe way' to be a young, poor boy racer driving a knackered 328i with a welded diff on a roundabout at 1am . It's the context really because the intention to have fun in a car taking calculated risks is the same.
Quote:
'Another invisible line seems to exist here - how else can you explain that a Ferrari Daytona's value seems to have absolutely nothing to do with how many miles it has covered, and yet a very leggy 550 Maranello in absolutely mint condition is worth way less than a barely used garage queen?
And when does mileage cease to be a factor in the valuation of a classic car?'
Well this was a topic on 'Drive' recently.
To add to what Matt Farrah said it's the rarity and the provenance/history. If there are few cars left just like that particular car, or few cars left that aren't original, or no cars with the same provenance/history then it overwhelms the actual value of a vehicle.
Actual value loses it's importance once you're buying something purely as a rolling rare and interesting antique. I mean that's why some old cars that are unreliable or drive horribly have such high value.
How much it's worth is just up to the whim of the market. If somebody is willing to bid a million at an auction then right then it's worth a million. Whether it will be worth an inflation adjusted million in many years nobody knows.
'Why is some chap on the lock-stops through Woodcote in a Mk1 Jag considered the very essence of Goodwood and 'real' driving yet posting a video of the latest M3 doing the same seen as childish, unrealistic and puerile?'
I don't think that.
If there's any snobbery it's comes from the 'right, safe way' to be an old, wealthy boy racer driving a Mk1 Jag at Goodwoord and the 'wrong, unsafe way' to be a young, poor boy racer driving a knackered 328i with a welded diff on a roundabout at 1am . It's the context really because the intention to have fun in a car taking calculated risks is the same.
Quote:
'Another invisible line seems to exist here - how else can you explain that a Ferrari Daytona's value seems to have absolutely nothing to do with how many miles it has covered, and yet a very leggy 550 Maranello in absolutely mint condition is worth way less than a barely used garage queen?
And when does mileage cease to be a factor in the valuation of a classic car?'
Well this was a topic on 'Drive' recently.
To add to what Matt Farrah said it's the rarity and the provenance/history. If there are few cars left just like that particular car, or few cars left that aren't original, or no cars with the same provenance/history then it overwhelms the actual value of a vehicle.
Actual value loses it's importance once you're buying something purely as a rolling rare and interesting antique. I mean that's why some old cars that are unreliable or drive horribly have such high value.
How much it's worth is just up to the whim of the market. If somebody is willing to bid a million at an auction then right then it's worth a million. Whether it will be worth an inflation adjusted million in many years nobody knows.
JUst for the record, and I am not sure its been mentioned here, but the driver of the Jaguar MK1 in the top picture is an awesome driver (Grant Williams). He is famous for hanging its ar5e out at every opportunity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKJDaNmbZHs
as you can see from the crowds, he does it every lap....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaNg-25OBLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKJDaNmbZHs
as you can see from the crowds, he does it every lap....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaNg-25OBLE
But it's pretty much impossible to go quickly in historic saloons (HRSR, Goodwood, Masters, Top Hat) without sliding - we have to run on Dunlop M or L section, which have very little grip - modern saloons on modern tyres are different - it's quicker keeping it on the edge.
I've driven my (1958) saloon in races both on Historic Dunlops and (once) on Yokohamas - I slide loads on Dunlops, and am slower - on Yokohamas, no sliding and far quicker - but my god I prefer the Dunlops, and I think spectators do too!
I've driven my (1958) saloon in races both on Historic Dunlops and (once) on Yokohamas - I slide loads on Dunlops, and am slower - on Yokohamas, no sliding and far quicker - but my god I prefer the Dunlops, and I think spectators do too!
XJ Flyer said:
Richair said:
I must have missed the comments criticising the way Mr Harris had driven the new M3, but seriously WTF!? I’m not drifter and nor do I really get it as a sport, but surely every discerning petrolhead wants to see the new M3 driven to death torturing its rear tyres for fun..? Or does everyone think traction control ASC etc. should be left firmly switched on these days? I’m being pedantic, but really I’m confused.
No its just that sideways isn't 'the quickest' way to drive something on tarmac and never was.Hasbeen said:
This is a fact.
I was racing these things in the day. No one quick slid mk1 & 2 Jags around anymore than they had to. Too much sliding & you ran out of tyres, & we weren't set up for pit stops in most racing.
In races like the Bathurst 500 tyre changes, with 5 stud wheels had to be accomplished during fuel filling. Extra tyre stops, in those days of no safety cars to let you catch up for free, put you effectively out of the race.
In F1s & 2s we were on the limit of a set of tyres in a 100 mile race, even doing most of the race well under 9 tenths. I recall Jack Brabham having a quick almost stop at the slowest point of Warwick farm to check if his tyres were safe, when he thought he saw bare cord in his right mirror in a hundred mile race.
From what I've seen of classic/historic racing today, many drivers are just having fun, & playing games. They are not trying to drive the cars as seriously as the top drivers drove them, or are not competent to do so anyway.
I have nothing to add other than: wow! You must have some great stories! I was racing these things in the day. No one quick slid mk1 & 2 Jags around anymore than they had to. Too much sliding & you ran out of tyres, & we weren't set up for pit stops in most racing.
In races like the Bathurst 500 tyre changes, with 5 stud wheels had to be accomplished during fuel filling. Extra tyre stops, in those days of no safety cars to let you catch up for free, put you effectively out of the race.
In F1s & 2s we were on the limit of a set of tyres in a 100 mile race, even doing most of the race well under 9 tenths. I recall Jack Brabham having a quick almost stop at the slowest point of Warwick farm to check if his tyres were safe, when he thought he saw bare cord in his right mirror in a hundred mile race.
From what I've seen of classic/historic racing today, many drivers are just having fun, & playing games. They are not trying to drive the cars as seriously as the top drivers drove them, or are not competent to do so anyway.
Really good to hear from someone with first hand experience from "back in the day". Thank you!
MichelV said:
If you drift your 70's daytona 90% of the folks see an old Ferrari driven like it is meant to be not 500k€.
If you do the same with your 55O Maranello 90% of People see a brand new 'expensive' Ferrari driven by a show-off.
Reality is unimportant, perception is.
You are correct. If you do the same with your 55O Maranello 90% of People see a brand new 'expensive' Ferrari driven by a show-off.
Reality is unimportant, perception is.
What it all boils down to is jealousy and envy. People come up with some quite wonderful excuses in attempt to hide the truth, but the truth is simply that they don't like to see someone with a few quid (Harris) having fun in an expensive car that they can't afford.
Good to see the late John Coombs Jag doing it's stuff. The number plates BUY 1, OWN 1 and BUY 12 were all owned by Coombs of Guildford, which became Vines when I worked there. I once turned up at the Festival of Speed in a 7 series with the reg. BUY 1 at the same time as it was on Coombs Mk2!
Does anyone know who owns the pictured car now?
Does anyone know who owns the pictured car now?
Edited by helix402 on Wednesday 17th September 22:47
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