RE: Age for forgiveness: PH Blog
Discussion
I for one thoroughly enjoy Mr Harris "hanging the arse out".
I don't understand anyone who says that seeing the balance, poise and ease with which it can be accomplished doesn't tell one something important about the overall handling characteristics of the vehicle in question - whether or not you would hang the arse out yourself if you were to drive said vehicle on the road.
Roundabouts were invented for hanging the arse out weren't they? In the past I've certainly enjoyed doing so in my Caterham on many an early Sunday morning and even discovered that a D2 S8 was surprisingly oversteery when driven with sufficient enthusiasm.
Sadly roundabouts are still few and far between out here in Vancouver but I've managed to find a few decent spots to explore the oversteer characteristics of a GT86.
Keep it up Mr Harris.
I don't understand anyone who says that seeing the balance, poise and ease with which it can be accomplished doesn't tell one something important about the overall handling characteristics of the vehicle in question - whether or not you would hang the arse out yourself if you were to drive said vehicle on the road.
Roundabouts were invented for hanging the arse out weren't they? In the past I've certainly enjoyed doing so in my Caterham on many an early Sunday morning and even discovered that a D2 S8 was surprisingly oversteery when driven with sufficient enthusiasm.
Sadly roundabouts are still few and far between out here in Vancouver but I've managed to find a few decent spots to explore the oversteer characteristics of a GT86.
Keep it up Mr Harris.
Kawasicki said:
Car physics hasn't changed, modern cars also need to slide to achieve maximum grip, it's just that the angles are smaller, the skill to drive them quickly is still just the same as it ever was. Drivers weren't trying harder back in the day.
Are you talking relatively? The skill required to drive, say, an M3 at a quick but relaxed pace would be less than a balls-to-the-wall run in an MGB despite the MG being slower, and modern driver aids mean people can hamfist their way over the car's mechanical safety margins to a much greater extent. However, as stated previously it's perception more than anything which drives opinion, and the perception of modern stuff is that it's showboating rather than skilful.Turbobanana said:
Interesting article, in that you are not comparing like-for-like.
The old cars in question are engaged in racing - pushing to the limit in an attempt to beat the other guy (or girl) which, by nature of their age / design / technical limitations, involves a certain amount of sliding. We all love that.
You then talk about a modern car, driven in isolation on an (apparently) empty race track and provoked beyond "normal" limits - behaviour which in no way reflects what the car will be doing in the real world for 99.9% of its existence, in most cases.
I suspect that the modern car, race prepared and on track with a quantity of similarly prepared contemporaries driven to (and beyond) its limits, would attract no derision whatsoever.
Horses for courses.
I'd agree with this.The old cars in question are engaged in racing - pushing to the limit in an attempt to beat the other guy (or girl) which, by nature of their age / design / technical limitations, involves a certain amount of sliding. We all love that.
You then talk about a modern car, driven in isolation on an (apparently) empty race track and provoked beyond "normal" limits - behaviour which in no way reflects what the car will be doing in the real world for 99.9% of its existence, in most cases.
I suspect that the modern car, race prepared and on track with a quantity of similarly prepared contemporaries driven to (and beyond) its limits, would attract no derision whatsoever.
Horses for courses.
I drag race and as such I perform a burn out before the run which cleans and warms the tyres (its not just for show unless fire is involved
) and being drag radials it also makes them interact better with the rubber and glue on the prepared race surface.If I did the same on a public road and plod saw me I'd probably get a ticket and even though it would make me giggle like a school kid, would be viewed by the majority as purile and childish. I recon if you drove these older cars on the public roads in the same manner the view would be the same.
Tyre profiles maybe?
Cars in the 60's and 70's were used to sliding around all over the place, mainly due to high profiles, and soft suspension, where as today's cars require much more energy / speed to make them slide. The limits are much higher, and therefore it's plain dangerous to start sliding around a modern car, hence the hooligan tag…
Cars in the 60's and 70's were used to sliding around all over the place, mainly due to high profiles, and soft suspension, where as today's cars require much more energy / speed to make them slide. The limits are much higher, and therefore it's plain dangerous to start sliding around a modern car, hence the hooligan tag…
CharlieBird said:
KevinBird said:
Little tyre smoke with old rubber so some how more acceptable than your tyre bonfires?
The car market is broken. If an idiot (me) can buy a car from a Official Porsche Centre in France, drive it home and sell 5 days later at a profit, equalling an average years salary, somethings wrong
The car market is even more broken when you consider how much more money you could've made if you'd kept it!!!! Not that I'm bitter or anything..The car market is broken. If an idiot (me) can buy a car from a Official Porsche Centre in France, drive it home and sell 5 days later at a profit, equalling an average years salary, somethings wrong
Edited by KevinBird on Wednesday 17th September 11:47
Jim Clark used to 'drift' his Lotus Cortina an awful lot, and given he was the best I would assume 'drifting' was a by-product of his style to make the car go as fast as possible.
It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
luckystrike said:
Are you talking relatively? The skill required to drive, say, an M3 at a quick but relaxed pace would be less than a balls-to-the-wall run in an MGB despite the MG being slower, and modern driver aids mean people can hamfist their way over the car's mechanical safety margins to a much greater extent. However, as stated previously it's perception more than anything which drives opinion, and the perception of modern stuff is that it's showboating rather than skilful.
Having spent a day throwing a rubber bumpered MGB-GT into corners sideways as a (quite effective) braking technique I'd suggest they're pretty easy to control on the limit. Much of the reason being that limit is extremely low so you've got more time to thing about what's going on.BlimeyCharlie said:
Jim Clark used to 'drift' his Lotus Cortina an awful lot, and given he was the best I would assume 'drifting' was a by-product of his style to make the car go as fast as possible.
It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
What Jim Clark etc were doing 'used to be called' four wheel drift.It is a very different technique to a sideways opposite lock power slide.It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
XJ Flyer said:
BlimeyCharlie said:
Jim Clark used to 'drift' his Lotus Cortina an awful lot, and given he was the best I would assume 'drifting' was a by-product of his style to make the car go as fast as possible.
It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
What Jim Clark etc were doing 'used to be called' four wheel drift.It is a very different technique to a sideways opposite lock power slide.It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
CDP said:
XJ Flyer said:
BlimeyCharlie said:
Jim Clark used to 'drift' his Lotus Cortina an awful lot, and given he was the best I would assume 'drifting' was a by-product of his style to make the car go as fast as possible.
It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
What Jim Clark etc were doing 'used to be called' four wheel drift.It is a very different technique to a sideways opposite lock power slide.It wasn't 'drifting' for the sake of it. Same as rally drivers did too, it was the fastest way to drive.
If you put Alonso in a modern Touring car, as a modern comparison, he wouldn't be driving it like Clark did, as modern cars and modern circuits have more physical grip, including tyres etc. But if Alonso was to drive an old Lotus Cortina then I'm sure he would soon be adopting a similar approach to Clark, assuming we know someone with a time machine.
The term 'drifting' is a bit naff I think. Used to be called 'sideways'.
No limited slip diffs, a tendency to oversteer, [rather than breakaway], & a lot less grip in the tyres, & somewhat less power, usually delivered lower down the rev range with thus more torque.
As the tails moved out, an application of the correct amount of power brought the vector of the rear tyres forward, allowing more speed. The cars developed quite an attitude, but were not sliding as in the modern tyre smoking "drifting", which is merely power sliding. I could carry the front wheel of a Repco Brabham 6" inside a curb, but the rear wheel, despite the wider rear track would still be well clear of the curb.
I still do a bit of it in my stockish TR7, the TR8 is set up in a more modern way, & won't let me do much of it, & the little Honda S2000 would bite me really hard if I tried it with it. This is talking about near the limit, not the slow power slides of the top gear boys.
Hasbeen said:
It was the cars, not the drivers.
No limited slip diffs, a tendency to oversteer, [rather than breakaway], & a lot less grip in the tyres, & somewhat less power, usually delivered lower down the rev range with thus more torque.
As the tails moved out, an application of the correct amount of power brought the vector of the rear tyres forward, allowing more speed. The cars developed quite an attitude, but were not sliding as in the modern tyre smoking "drifting", which is merely power sliding. I could carry the front wheel of a Repco Brabham 6" inside a curb, but the rear wheel, despite the wider rear track would still be well clear of the curb.
I still do a bit of it in my stockish TR7, the TR8 is set up in a more modern way, & won't let me do much of it, & the little Honda S2000 would bite me really hard if I tried it with it. This is talking about near the limit, not the slow power slides of the top gear boys.
The Locost I run drifts quite effectively. Gerrards at Mallory is a particularly good place where it's possible to hold an angle most of the way through and a faster technique. But as you mentioned this is nothing to do with a "Tokyo Drift" and no tyre smoke is involved.No limited slip diffs, a tendency to oversteer, [rather than breakaway], & a lot less grip in the tyres, & somewhat less power, usually delivered lower down the rev range with thus more torque.
As the tails moved out, an application of the correct amount of power brought the vector of the rear tyres forward, allowing more speed. The cars developed quite an attitude, but were not sliding as in the modern tyre smoking "drifting", which is merely power sliding. I could carry the front wheel of a Repco Brabham 6" inside a curb, but the rear wheel, despite the wider rear track would still be well clear of the curb.
I still do a bit of it in my stockish TR7, the TR8 is set up in a more modern way, & won't let me do much of it, & the little Honda S2000 would bite me really hard if I tried it with it. This is talking about near the limit, not the slow power slides of the top gear boys.
1960's and 70's will generally have been through a lot, the effects will be as much from age (corrosion) as mileage. Except in rare cases, you dont get a service history. Thus experience teaches you to go in with your eyes open.
Modern "classics" say a ferrari 512 TR are very much sold on service history and mileage and buyers seem to expect that a pristine FSH low mileage example wont have issues..I bought a low milage SL55 (but without a great SH) from the place where that 550 is parked..lets just say it wasn't a great experience and the ABC suspension parts to make it right cost a lot of money.
The warrenty by the way, was useless.
So for my 2p worth, classic cars tend to have higher miles, deal with it, for "modern classics" service history trumps miles
Modern "classics" say a ferrari 512 TR are very much sold on service history and mileage and buyers seem to expect that a pristine FSH low mileage example wont have issues..I bought a low milage SL55 (but without a great SH) from the place where that 550 is parked..lets just say it wasn't a great experience and the ABC suspension parts to make it right cost a lot of money.
The warrenty by the way, was useless.
So for my 2p worth, classic cars tend to have higher miles, deal with it, for "modern classics" service history trumps miles
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