RE: Audi TT Ultra and Sport: Driven
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I don't think I agree. The Cayman offers a few subjective things different to the Exige (more front biased weight distribution, a rather different engine note, etc.) but as a drivers car but nothing objective that I can think of? The TT actually offers something objective over the other two which some people will view as a benefit in a sports car - four wheel drive. I also don't see why it matters. Everyone has different requirements and priorities and no-one's will fall exactly along arbitrary class lines. To most sports car buyers, practicality, refinement and interior quality are more important than handling.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 18th September 10:48
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Exactly, that's the sole point I was trying to make. As for the second half of your statement, you seem to be defining "sane" as "agreeing with you", which seems a bit shallow - personally, I don't like 4WD cars but I can accept that to many people it's a significant benefit in a drivers' car. Some people even genuinely prefer the handling characteristics of FWD cars.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 18th September 11:12
Each car has a set of attributes. Each person has a set of attributes they consider to be important in a sports car, some of which are subjective. For some people that amounts to "Looks flash, nice interior, practical, economical, comfortable, lots of grip, pokey mid range". For others, it includes "great handling", "lovely steering", "naturally aspirated" or "six cylinder engine". It's pretty arbitrary.
Just for calibration, I once met someone who described their 206CC as a sports car.
Just for calibration, I once met someone who described their 206CC as a sports car.
I think that a 2.5 ton, 1.6 litre turbodiesel SUV with a laggy torque converter 'box, chronic understeer, zero steering feel, zero brake feel and a horrible engine note is the best sports car in the world.
Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, why? It's my opinion, so it's just as valid as anyone else's.
Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, why? It's my opinion, so it's just as valid as anyone else's.
ORD said:
I think that a 2.5 ton, 1.6 litre turbodiesel SUV with a laggy torque converter 'box, chronic understeer, zero steering feel, zero brake feel and a horrible engine note is the best sports car in the world.
Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, why? It's my opinion, so it's just as valid as anyone else's.
you've driven the X4 allready?Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, why? It's my opinion, so it's just as valid as anyone else's.
you lucky git!
I don't think it would actually be hard to come up with a list of things that are unequivocally associated with sports cars and as being good. It's a billion miles from being wholly subjective.
For a start, aren't all the following unequivocally good things?
Steering feel.
Throttle response.
Handling balance (preferably neutralish or a bit oversteery, depending on your taste, but certainly not understeer)
Lightness.
All of these come with downsides. You might accept a bit more weight for a bit more comfort or refinement, but if you could have all of that with the lightness, too, you wouldn't add weight. You might accept worse throttle response in return for a turbo (more power for the same weight), but you would prefer that there be no sacrifice.
If all that is right, then I think there is a fair bit that really is objective. The Cayman loses out to the Lotus on a lot of these things, but it wins on some other things that are also important in a sports car - like engine note and power delivery (although the last of these is quite subjective). The Cayman would unequivocally be a better sports car if it was 200kg lighter, had better steering feel and throttle response but was otherwise the same.
For a start, aren't all the following unequivocally good things?
Steering feel.
Throttle response.
Handling balance (preferably neutralish or a bit oversteery, depending on your taste, but certainly not understeer)
Lightness.
All of these come with downsides. You might accept a bit more weight for a bit more comfort or refinement, but if you could have all of that with the lightness, too, you wouldn't add weight. You might accept worse throttle response in return for a turbo (more power for the same weight), but you would prefer that there be no sacrifice.
If all that is right, then I think there is a fair bit that really is objective. The Cayman loses out to the Lotus on a lot of these things, but it wins on some other things that are also important in a sports car - like engine note and power delivery (although the last of these is quite subjective). The Cayman would unequivocally be a better sports car if it was 200kg lighter, had better steering feel and throttle response but was otherwise the same.
ORD said:
I think that a 2.5 ton, 1.6 litre turbodiesel SUV with a laggy torque converter 'box, chronic understeer, zero steering feel, zero brake feel and a horrible engine note is the best sports car in the world.
Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, why? It's my opinion, so it's just as valid as anyone else's.
You are wrong, because, whilst it does vary, the general definition of "sports car" does not fit with the attributes listed in your opinion.Am I right or wrong? If I am wrong, why? It's my opinion, so it's just as valid as anyone else's.
ORD said:
Fair point re back seats (although who actually uses the seats in a 2+2?), but the Cayman has plenty of boot space, and I doubt that anyone actually uses that loading capacity in a TT. It is a theoretical advantage that I doubt matters at all for 99% of buyers.
I'm not sure I agree with that - target audience for the TT is different to the Cayman - but there is of course overlap. I don't think the diesel TT overlaps at all, or really the base petrol either. Only the TTS competes in anyway with the Cayman - and whilst not as sharp as the Cayman - I do think it is a nice alternative.I just bought a TTS for my wife - and to be honest, it is fantastic. Comparing it to my 911 is interesting - it is easier to drive fast, it is a lovely 'object' in terms of thorough design and execution. It does not communicate in the same way as a Porsche, but that's ok for some people, the design, interior and 'ease of ownership' can trump.
Why does it work for my wife? Simple - she wants something fast, she needs space for our young children and she wants something thats small and sporty looking. Does she care how it drives? Yes - but her needs are more compromised than the ones we may have... and actually - I find the TTS really fun to drive, way exceeds my expectations.
A friend has a TTRS - she loves it and bought it for the same reason - needs room for kids.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
For me control feel, control feedback and control linearity are the most important things in a sports car, followed by quality of damping. None of those are things the (987, I haven't driven a 981) Cayman does particularly well although neither does it do any of them particularly badly. The Cayman's engine is nice enough, but not really any better than other naturally aspirated petrols with a reasonable red-line - I couldn't care less what a car sounds like.
As with the TT, I don't think the Cayman is a bad car, far from it. It just doesn't particularly do what I value in a sports car.
csmith319 said:
I find the TTS really fun to drive, way exceeds my expectations.
Were your expectations clouded by what you have read on this and other forums from those who have never driven one but know that it couldn't possibly be as 'balanced, neutral, composed, provide feedback, slip angles' and other phrases which get thrown around in the most meaningless of ways.aka_kerrly said:
Were your expectations clouded by what you have read on this and other forums from those who have never driven one but know that it couldn't possibly be as 'balanced, neutral, composed, provide feedback, slip angles' and other phrases which get thrown around in the most meaningless of ways.
haha - yes, probably! I was one of those people calling it a 'Golf in drag' to people before I had driven one properly. To get it to a point of understeer on the road, you'd be driving like an idiot and just unsafely in fact. Its a really fun car - would happily have one as an everyday drive. As an object - its just lovely and punches way above its weight.Clivey said:
E65Ross said:
You are wrong, because, whilst it does vary, the general definition of "sports car" does not fit with the attributes listed in your opinion.
Which is?"A sports car (sportscar) is a small, usually two seat, two door automobile designed for spirited performance and nimble handling.[2]
Sports cars may be spartan or luxurious but high maneuverability and minimum weight are requisite."
So the Audi TT is not a sports car by wiki definition.
Clivey said:
I can't be bothered going down this route again (discussing the legitimacy and relevance of certain tests or lap times - see my replies in other threads) but what I will say is that you cannot defy physics, no matter how hard you try.
Rightfully so, as most of the recorded times place it at parity or above its competitors in terms of outright performance. Your last statement is true, but you again fail to consider that vehicles are built via compromise, even purebred race machines. There is no perfect chassis. When talking about road cars, I simply don't experience this massive disparity between driving hell and nirvana on a chassis that has 5% less weight on its front axle vs. a quattro TT. And the benefits of AWD balance the package out nicely.Clivey said:
I notice that you like the M Coupé (Z3), by the way. - What is it that appeals to you personally? Iit seems at odds with what you've posted in the various threads re. Golf-platform cars.
Yes, I do. It's one of the most enjoyable coupés I've driven. It's small, light, has a short wheelbase, and with the S54 has silly power for the chassis. On the flip side, as a pure performance tool it is unstable, has an imbalanced weight dist. for a rear driver, and its chassis is made of spaghetti, but in terms of fun, there aren't many cars I've driven which come close.Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff