RE: Lotus jobs at risk

[Ozzie Osmond]

blueg33 said:

I would say he is a typical Porsche buyer, mid life crisis purchase, bought the car using his bonus, not a petrol head.

^^^
....and Alex Salmond is prime minister of Scotland.

[otolith]

kambites said:

It won evo car of the year. That's a fair chunk of exposure amongst petrol heads and who else was ever going to buy one anyway?

Doesn't seem to be selling much though. I see quite a few Evoras around, I've seen one Exige V6.

I believe you still need a cancelled order if you want a build slot any time soon, so I guess they are building as many as they can.

[blueg33]

Ozzie Osmond said:

blueg33 said:

I would say he is a typical Porsche buyer, mid life crisis purchase, bought the car using his bonus, not a petrol head.

^^^
....and Alex Salmond is prime minister of Scotland.

Of course plenty of Porsche buyers are petrolheads, but plenty aren't. The example I quoted is just one of several people I know who have bought Porsche's for the badge and the status implied.

Where I live, Porsche's are pretty common, you can be pretty sure that most of the woners are not prtrol heads. My neighbur has a nerw Boxster, her car before was a Pug 206cc, she bought the Boxster because its a Porsche, and there are so many examples. I know lots of bankers with Porsches, most of them have no idea of what the engine is etc, all they know is that they ticked every option box and spent £120k

[kambites]

otolith said:

I believe you still need a cancelled order if you want a build slot any time soon, so I guess they are building as many as they can.

Interesting. I wonder what the production line capacity is? Maybe the price has pushed them more into the hands of people who will use them in a "weekend car" type role than the Elise or Evora so they aren't on the roads as much.

[kambites]

Ozzie Osmond said:

£52,000 is serious wedge for a 20-year old Elise/Exige tub with a V6 at the back.

Whilst people clearly do think this like, I've never really understood the mentality. Why does the age of a component have any bearing on its market value? Whilst the Elise tub is far from perfect, it's still one of the best platforms out there for what it's designed to do, so why on earth would they change it when there are so many other things about the car that actually need improving?

Yes, it's an arse to get in and out of if you're unfit or elderly but it's not trying to be a Boxster and it fails in too many other ways if it was. Maybe this is one of the reasons Lotus are pushing their focus into the far East; there's less fat people who can't get in and out of cars.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 20th September 10:26

[Dynamic Turtle]

Given the cost of making staff redundant in this country I doubt Lotus are doing it lightly. All companies go through periods of adjustment (some more than others!) and with new management onboard they are making the strategic decision they were paid to do.

Over 8 pages of the thread I think Tuna's comments resonated the most with me. I think they need to invest in supply chain stability, reputation for reliability, dealer network and customer service before worrying about new models. I don't own a Lotus but friends who do have suffered a range of catastrophic problems with them. Support from Lotus and the dealer network has been strong however and these friends don't seem willing to part with their expensive mistresses regardless of the headaches, so they must be a lot of fun...

The current portfolio seems competitively adequate in terms of performance and looks and they certainly are selling abroad, but I don't think people buying an Evora seriously consider Porsche. They're iconoclasts, individuals and attention seekers, not conformists concerned with residuals or badge kudos. If forthcoming emissions legislation become a technical hurdle there is always the option to turbo rather than supercharge. I'm sure Lotus would manage the deleterious effects of such a change with aplomb.

If they focus on this for the next 10 years I think they will have built a more solid foundation to support the required investment in design, manufacturing, distribution network, marketing and finance offers to take them where JLR is today, backed by DRBs balance sheet and (hopefully) continued support.

DT

[kambites]

I'd be interested to know what catastrophic failures people have had with what cars? Modern Lotus cars are renowned for annoying niggles but from what I've seen/experienced they have no more tendency to fail in serious ways than any other modern car (hardly surprisingly when you consider that the drive-train is almost all Toyota).

In a way that's their problem. Customers will accept a one in one hundred chance of their entire enging lunching itself (see Porsche) but wont accept a 90% chance of their paint peeling off and their interior falling to bits.

[blueg33]

Dynamic Turtle said:

Given the cost of making staff redundant in this country I doubt Lotus are doing it lightly. All companies go through periods of adjustment (some more than others!) and with new management onboard they are making the strategic decision they were paid to do.

Over 8 pages of the thread I think Tuna's comments resonated the most with me. I think they need to invest in supply chain stability, reputation for reliability, dealer network and customer service before worrying about new models. I don't own a Lotus but friends who do have suffered a range of catastrophic problems with them. Support from Lotus and the dealer network has been strong however and these friends don't seem willing to part with their expensive mistresses regardless of the headaches, so they must be a lot of fun...

The current portfolio seems competitively adequate in terms of performance and looks and they certainly are selling abroad, but I don't think people buying an Evora seriously consider Porsche. They're iconoclasts, individuals and attention seekers, not conformists concerned with residuals or badge kudos. If forthcoming emissions legislation become a technical hurdle there is always the option to turbo rather than supercharge. I'm sure Lotus would manage the deleterious effects of such a change with aplomb.

If they focus on this for the next 10 years I think they will have built a more solid foundation to support the required investment in design, manufacturing, distribution network, marketing and finance offers to take them where JLR is today, backed by DRBs balance sheet and (hopefully) continued support.

DT

Generally I agree

Evora residuals after about 3 years are better than 911 and Cayman

[Dynamic Turtle]

kambites said:

I'd be interested to know what catastrophic failures people have had with what cars? Modern Lotus cars are renowned for annoying niggles but from what I've seen/experienced they have no more tendency to fail in serious ways than any other modern car (hardly surprisingly when you consider that the drive-train is almost all Toyota).

In a way that's their problem. Customers will accept a one in one hundred chance of their entire enging lunching itself (see Porsche) but wont accept a 90% chance of their paint peeling off and their interior falling to bits.

We have also been surprised at Lotus' ability to turn allegedly bulletproof Toyota engines into expensive ornaments. My guess is that a combination of mid-mounting, supercharging and far more enthusiastic use than any Camry or Celica powertrain will ever have been subjected to on track, is partly to blame, along with a limited development budget at Lotus to reconcile these issues. however I have no informed opinion or empirical data to back this assertion up. Owners still seem to be dogmatically attached to the cars though and I'm genuinely surprised my friend is keeping his Exige after its latest collapse.

WRT to Porsche's well publicised engine reliability issues across the 986/996/Metzger platform the difference is that they have developed a far stronger enterprise over the years along with the sales volume and brand cachet for it not to dent their juggernaut - and in the context of the billions of deutsche marks spent developing the franchise over the last 70 years. While we're on the subject of Porsche and new models, it was, effectively, a single-platform company for many decades (the 911) with a handful of moderately successful front-engined variants (944 etc) until the Boxster and Cayenne came along 50 years later. Why can't Lotus keep the Elise/Exige running for another 20 years? The 7 is still a very popular and effective antique!

DT

[kambites]

You could argue that the Cayman and 911 are the same platform, they share far more than many other "platform shared" cars possibly including the Elise and Exige? Obviously the SUV platforms are bought in from their parent company; I think the Panamera is pretty much bespoke?

It's a shame to hear that people are having engine issues with the V6. I've not heard of any significant issues with the power train at all except for the chocolate clutch which has a rather ridiculous labour cost to replace.

Edited by kambites on Saturday 20th September 13:06

[blueg33]

I am a member of pretty much every Lotus forum. With regards to the Evora there is virtually no record of engine catastrophe's. A few rough running threads ususally down to sensor issues, but nothing at all like Porsche with the 996/997 gen 1 engines.

Porsche lost a class action on these issues.

[otolith]

I've heard of oil starvation issues with some Toyota engines used on track with sticky tyres, and obviously the K-series has a well known design fault you can hardly blame Lotus for, but I've not heard of many other engine woes.

[kambites]

I've heard of oil starvation with the 2ZZ, but not with the other Toyota engines.

[DonkeyApple]

The Porsche scenario does raise the issue that any purpose for building a generic people wagon with your ethos has an additional upside beyond just increasing revenues and that is also in getting your brand out in the streets all day, every day and everywhere.

The fact that people will spend £50k on a baby Porsche but not in a Lotus product raises the core issue of branding. Yes, we can argue that a Porsche is better built but an awful lot does boil down to brand desire in the modern market.

There is no doubting that Lotus could benefit from building something like a MINI rival that is aimed at both the Eco and performance market.

[kambites]

DonkeyApple said:

There is no doubting that Lotus could benefit from building something like a MINI rival that is aimed at both the Eco and performance market.

Hmm, I certainly do doubt it. I can't think of a better way for them to finally bankrupt themselves.

[Dynamic Turtle]

blueg33 said:

I am a member of pretty much every Lotus forum. With regards to the Evora there is virtually no record of engine catastrophe's. A few rough running threads ususally down to sensor issues, but nothing at all like Porsche with the 996/997 gen 1 engines.

Porsche lost a class action on these issues.

I think a lot of people have problems with their cars that they don't share on forums for fear of looking foolish at having bought a lemon. But some people DO go on Embarrassing Bodies and share their genital ailments with the world - perhaps Porsche owners are more upfront about discussing issues with their penis extensions?

It is also compounded by the simple fact that most Evoras are only just coming out of warranty whereas a 986/996 could be six years older hence more forum requests for info and assistance compared to throwing the keys back to the dealer.

DT

Edited by Dynamic Turtle on Saturday 20th September 14:34

[kambites]

I think you underestimate how much people on Lotus forums are willing to bh about their cars and Lotus generally appalling customer support. If there were common serious problems with the V6, they would be all over places like SELOC even if they were being fixed under warranty.

[SidewaysSi]

kambites said:

DonkeyApple said:

There is no doubting that Lotus could benefit from building something like a MINI rival that is aimed at both the Eco and performance market.

Hmm, I certainly do doubt it. I can't think of a better way for them to finally bankrupt themselves.

I agree, a MINI is the last thing Lotus should be building. Lotus do not sell as well as Porsche as in many countries it does not have the brand, they are too sparse inside and they are made of plastic. IMO a lot of people who buy these things care far more about these qualities than the driving experience.

My Elise has been totally reliable and is one of te finest cars I have driven, 911s and M3s included.

For those that actually care about driving, the Exige v6 is stunning. It is more comfortable than many saloon cars on the road but with proper track ability and being a Lotus, best in te business steering and handling. For me, £52k is a bargain in comparison to the equivalent Porsche.

I would much rather have the Exige than any non GT3/RS and even then, it would be a mighty tough decision.

[Dynamic Turtle]

DonkeyApple said:

There is no doubting that Lotus could benefit from building something like a MINI rival that is aimed at both the Eco and performance market.

And how are they going to raise the ten-figure sum required to do that?

[SidewaysSi]

SidewaysSi said:

kambites said:

DonkeyApple said:

There is no doubting that Lotus could benefit from building something like a MINI rival that is aimed at both the Eco and performance market.

Hmm, I certainly do doubt it. I can't think of a better way for them to finally bankrupt themselves.

I agree, a MINI is the last thing Lotus should be building. Lotus do not sell as well as Porsche as in many countries it does not have the brand, they are too sparse inside and they are made of plastic. IMO a lot of people who buy these things care far more about these qualities than the driving experience.

My Elise has been totally reliable and is one of the finest cars I have driven, 911s and M3s included.

For those that actually care about driving, the Exige v6 is stunning. It is more comfortable than many saloon cars on the road but with proper track ability and being a Lotus, best in te business steering and handling. For me, £52k is a bargain in comparison to the equivalent Porsche.

I would much rather have the Exige than any non GT3/RS and even then, it would be a mighty tough decision.