RE: Lotus jobs at risk
Discussion
kambites said:
You could argue that the Cayman and 911 are the same platform, they share far more than many other "platform shared" cars possibly including the Elise and Exige? Obviously the SUV platforms are bought in from their parent company; I think the Panamera is pretty much bespoke?
It's a shame to hear that people are having engine issues with the V6. I've not heard of any significant issues with the power train at all except for the chocolate clutch which has a rather ridiculous labour cost to replace.
Yes £3k for a clutch change is supercar pricing but at least they seem to one of the harder-wearing components in the powertrain.It's a shame to hear that people are having engine issues with the V6. I've not heard of any significant issues with the power train at all except for the chocolate clutch which has a rather ridiculous labour cost to replace.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 20th September 13:06
kambites said:
I think you underestimate how much people on Lotus forums are willing to b
h about their cars and Lotus generally appalling customer support. If there were common serious problems with the V6, they would be all over places like SELOC even if they were being fixed under warranty.
Yep, there has been loads of bh about their cars and Lotus generally appalling customer support. If there were common serious problems with the V6, they would be all over places like SELOC even if they were being fixed under warranty. hing about pr 2012 gear linkages, peeling headlights and the much loathed Alpine satnav.
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
There is no doubting that Lotus could benefit from building something like a MINI rival that is aimed at both the Eco and performance market.
Hmm, I certainly do doubt it. I can't think of a better way for them to finally bankrupt themselves. The fact is that you can't build a single model of niche car in the West and stand alone. Lotus just make sports cars. Of all the car markets to be in it is one of the most niche. On top of that they can't compete on price against the multinational manufacturers.
So, they need another product that is in a much bigger segment and that can carry a premium cost. This leaves SUVs and hatchbacks really. Lotus' heritage plays much more towards the sporty hatchback than it does an SUV.
As for finally bankrupting themselves, they are already dead in the water. They can't pay their own way so that is to all intents and purpose bankrupt. Luckily they have a sugar daddy who is underwriting their debt liabilities but with a business model that has proven to not sell cars in viable numbers and an engineering division which appears to be cutting staff and costs without doubt because of declining revenues one can only dummies how long that will last.
No one wants Lotus to go but if they are going to stick to just selling small numbers of sports cars then their only real option is insolvency and debt write down/renegotiation and start again the next day without the massive burden of all that debt which they have accumulated without realising any increase in revenue. If they are going to of on with the current debt obligations then they need to increase sales volumes by a magnitude that is totally impossible by just selling sports cars.
Bahar had the right idea but in reality his model line up should have been models aimed at the generic, largest segments and not 5 identical cars all for the same niche segment.
They need to get the 20/30 something's into their product line up and that isn't going to happen with expensive sportscars. And they can't get more pensioners into their products because pensioners need to be able to get in and out and also demand at least 100 buttons that do things to their anus.
The real question for Lotus is just who is their product aimed at in the UK and how large is that potential market and how much money do they have.
Which other successful independent non-mainstream brands survive on selling to twenty and thirty somethings? That market is stitched up by brands like Ford, Vauxhall, Renault and Mini. I don't see Lotus being able to sell a competitively priced hot hatch without a big selling turd to polish, and I can't see how it would get that volume, nor how the brand could survive selling so many turds and still be able to sell sports cars.
k-ink said:
robinessex said:
How about a Lotus like this. Basic and simple. And dynamite to drive.
Now that could be made very easily and sold at a sensible price. There is literally nothing to it. For something this exciting I would drive a daily shed if it meant affording this for the weekend. Odd that Lotus, with all it's history, managers, engineers, experience, knowledge, skill, get into the dog dodo, and a few men in a shed, with no previous behind them, do this :-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......................!!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......................!!!
The whol ething is tricky for Lotus, the £40-70k sports car category is dominated by Porsche who make very good cars and have massive brand awareness. This niche really needs more competitition and IMO Lotus could provide that with the Evora they very nearly do.
I will be intereted to see how the Alfa 4C does in terms of volume after a few years in the UK and the forthcoming Alpine (if they ever get there).
If you take the Evora's main competitor the Cayman, in 2010 the Evora launch year they sold 205 cars against 838 Caymans. That isnt as bad as I thought it would be bearing in mind the size of Porsche and the visibility of dealers. But that was pretty much the launch year for the Evora whereas the Cayman was getting a bit long in the tooth.
If Lotus had kept up that sales rate things would have been better, sadly in 2014 they have only sold 22 Evoras in the UK.
I will be intereted to see how the Alfa 4C does in terms of volume after a few years in the UK and the forthcoming Alpine (if they ever get there).
If you take the Evora's main competitor the Cayman, in 2010 the Evora launch year they sold 205 cars against 838 Caymans. That isnt as bad as I thought it would be bearing in mind the size of Porsche and the visibility of dealers. But that was pretty much the launch year for the Evora whereas the Cayman was getting a bit long in the tooth.
If Lotus had kept up that sales rate things would have been better, sadly in 2014 they have only sold 22 Evoras in the UK.
robinessex said:
Odd that Lotus, with all it's history, managers, engineers, experience, knowledge, skill, get into the dog dodo, and a few men in a shed, with no previous behind them, do this :-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......................!!!
No previous? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......................!!!
Are you being serious?
robinessex said:
Odd that Lotus, with all it's history, managers, engineers, experience, knowledge, skill, get into the dog dodo, and a few men in a shed, with no previous behind them, do this :-
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......................!!!
Is that the Lotus Motorsports garagehttp://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Mmmmmmmmmmmm......................!!!
I'll bite as I'm probably close to one the demographics mentioned, I'm single, earn above average but not serious money, love driving, not fussed about image or gadgets, and have owned a Lotus in the past.
from reading the previous posts and information I've known from being in the club and living locally..
- If they have waiting lists then arguably you either have a demand or a supply issue (not enough capacity, or too much demand - price too low?!). That is assuming they are not happy to continue in this fashion, which Morgan have done for decades.
- The manufacturing process is very efficient and cost effective, there is certainly no low hanging fruit here.
- As previously mentioned the debt etc is a real issue, especially after DHBs plans, right or wrong that money can now really be called wasted, which doesn't help at all as this would probably have been sufficient to invest properly in one or two new models (not 5) or capitally on site to provide some other key benefit not normally possible with their cash flow.
- Agree with it or not, the emissions laws in the EU, and the lack of availability with Toyota for engines that can compete on emissions grounds for the entry level cars, and charisma grounds for the top end, leaves them hamstrung. I suspect that is why they aren't doing as well in the UK now, but are doing well in other markets without these restrictions.
Why am I not buying one?
- I can't afford one, even remotely, even second hand. I quite like the elise, and could easily afford to run one, however; a) they are too expensive even s/h for me, b) I cannot ever imagine being able to afford a property which a decent garage now. c) to rent a garage from the council costs me twice as much as one of their tenants, whilst we are not talking enormous sums of money, it is the difference between 'OK I'll do that' and 'HMM maybe not'.
- If they did a car I could run as a daily, I would be more interested in trying to own one, probably s/h but if I ever earned big bucks I'd buy one new.
- I loved my Excel, and would really be something like that which would attract me again, fun, practical and a bit quirky, but without the potential for a complete ruin. I can afford to replace broken door handles, not engines.
- I think they probably need to look becoming an 'assembler' again throwing in some innovation and charm. I know people will complain that it is ridiculous to spend, say the £40k even a cheap excel type car would cost, when it is hashed together (a la the original) from parts from other manufacturers. I think this is much more a marketing issue if it arises than anything else, the fact that most of the larger companies do this de facto now means that this could easily be countermanded from 'cheap feel', to something else.
- Not sure proton are the right parent company atm, they are happy to underwrite the debt but little more it seems. Not what Lotus needs to get out of the hole anytime soon. IMHO they need access to a decent parts and drive-train bin. Proton don't have a desirable one, and the Toyota engine tie in isn't as good as it might seem, its not the 80s anymore.
They might be able to add a coupe to the market at not insurmountable costs, this would give them a much needed more comfortable and practical solution. Giving a completely different segment an entry to Lotus. The question is, the coupe market has died sadly there is probably a reason why all the major players have abandoned this sector completely (no I do not think a 235 is a coupe, its a saloon with two of the doors welded). Perhaps they could switch engine supplier, or the exclusivity and link up with ford or gm to get access to engines that better suit the EU market. As mentioned Ford's Ecoboost or a GM SIDI Engine. In fact, GM would seem idea if possible, the 4 POT SIDI turbos for the entry level, and then access to some the american SIDI V6's that we don't get over here would give some decent performance at a more palatable MPG / CO2 running costs than the Toyota v6. Especially if we imagine an Excel type car under business use.
I really do think that the nail has been hit on the head by the previous posters on two counts.
- Very few people now have the money for something like this (especially outside of finance)
- Those that do would rather buy something else (German)
I would like, a nice modern Excel type car, 4 usable seats (ok 2 rear are probably short journeys only etc, but not a hopeless prospect like the Evora). A Decent performance / running cost compromise (in at least one of the engine options). Say a 2.5 V6, 30-35ish mpg, 0-60 of 7-7.5 seconds. If they did one, then with my current income I'd be saving hard for a used one. However I don't have the money to entertain any new car, yet alone something north of £30k (I'm not comfortable with finance). So there in is the issue, I'm statistically doing better than a large portion of my generation, but have nowhere near the income to have the space (property) to allow for a second car, or to purchase one car brand spanking yet alone too.
Realistically, you are probably now looking at nudging £80k+ a year to be able to have a multi-car garage that might include a new sports car in my generation (late 20s) that's probably before thinking about kids and associated costs. And I live in a fairly affordable part of the country. I think the vast amount of people under 40 (today) are going to find options for enjoyment in life severely limited by mortgage costs unless we get some serious wage inflation which is pretty unlikely.
from reading the previous posts and information I've known from being in the club and living locally..
- If they have waiting lists then arguably you either have a demand or a supply issue (not enough capacity, or too much demand - price too low?!). That is assuming they are not happy to continue in this fashion, which Morgan have done for decades.
- The manufacturing process is very efficient and cost effective, there is certainly no low hanging fruit here.
- As previously mentioned the debt etc is a real issue, especially after DHBs plans, right or wrong that money can now really be called wasted, which doesn't help at all as this would probably have been sufficient to invest properly in one or two new models (not 5) or capitally on site to provide some other key benefit not normally possible with their cash flow.
- Agree with it or not, the emissions laws in the EU, and the lack of availability with Toyota for engines that can compete on emissions grounds for the entry level cars, and charisma grounds for the top end, leaves them hamstrung. I suspect that is why they aren't doing as well in the UK now, but are doing well in other markets without these restrictions.
Why am I not buying one?
- I can't afford one, even remotely, even second hand. I quite like the elise, and could easily afford to run one, however; a) they are too expensive even s/h for me, b) I cannot ever imagine being able to afford a property which a decent garage now. c) to rent a garage from the council costs me twice as much as one of their tenants, whilst we are not talking enormous sums of money, it is the difference between 'OK I'll do that' and 'HMM maybe not'.
- If they did a car I could run as a daily, I would be more interested in trying to own one, probably s/h but if I ever earned big bucks I'd buy one new.
- I loved my Excel, and would really be something like that which would attract me again, fun, practical and a bit quirky, but without the potential for a complete ruin. I can afford to replace broken door handles, not engines.
- I think they probably need to look becoming an 'assembler' again throwing in some innovation and charm. I know people will complain that it is ridiculous to spend, say the £40k even a cheap excel type car would cost, when it is hashed together (a la the original) from parts from other manufacturers. I think this is much more a marketing issue if it arises than anything else, the fact that most of the larger companies do this de facto now means that this could easily be countermanded from 'cheap feel', to something else.
- Not sure proton are the right parent company atm, they are happy to underwrite the debt but little more it seems. Not what Lotus needs to get out of the hole anytime soon. IMHO they need access to a decent parts and drive-train bin. Proton don't have a desirable one, and the Toyota engine tie in isn't as good as it might seem, its not the 80s anymore.
They might be able to add a coupe to the market at not insurmountable costs, this would give them a much needed more comfortable and practical solution. Giving a completely different segment an entry to Lotus. The question is, the coupe market has died sadly there is probably a reason why all the major players have abandoned this sector completely (no I do not think a 235 is a coupe, its a saloon with two of the doors welded). Perhaps they could switch engine supplier, or the exclusivity and link up with ford or gm to get access to engines that better suit the EU market. As mentioned Ford's Ecoboost or a GM SIDI Engine. In fact, GM would seem idea if possible, the 4 POT SIDI turbos for the entry level, and then access to some the american SIDI V6's that we don't get over here would give some decent performance at a more palatable MPG / CO2 running costs than the Toyota v6. Especially if we imagine an Excel type car under business use.
I really do think that the nail has been hit on the head by the previous posters on two counts.
- Very few people now have the money for something like this (especially outside of finance)
- Those that do would rather buy something else (German)
I would like, a nice modern Excel type car, 4 usable seats (ok 2 rear are probably short journeys only etc, but not a hopeless prospect like the Evora). A Decent performance / running cost compromise (in at least one of the engine options). Say a 2.5 V6, 30-35ish mpg, 0-60 of 7-7.5 seconds. If they did one, then with my current income I'd be saving hard for a used one. However I don't have the money to entertain any new car, yet alone something north of £30k (I'm not comfortable with finance). So there in is the issue, I'm statistically doing better than a large portion of my generation, but have nowhere near the income to have the space (property) to allow for a second car, or to purchase one car brand spanking yet alone too.
Realistically, you are probably now looking at nudging £80k+ a year to be able to have a multi-car garage that might include a new sports car in my generation (late 20s) that's probably before thinking about kids and associated costs. And I live in a fairly affordable part of the country. I think the vast amount of people under 40 (today) are going to find options for enjoyment in life severely limited by mortgage costs unless we get some serious wage inflation which is pretty unlikely.
fitz1985 said:
I'll bite as I'm probably close to one the demographics mentioned, I'm single, earn above average but not serious money, love driving, not fussed about image or gadgets, and have owned a Lotus in the past.
I've just laughed at myself typing this and imagine everyone going to my garage to find that I drive a 1.8 VVT Astra SRI Estate. Probably indicative of the issues lower cost sports cars are having at the moment. kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
The fact is that you can't build a single model of niche car in the West and stand alone. manufacturers.
Caterham seem ot be doing OK, as do Ginetta and Noble. Impasse said:
k-ink said:
robinessex said:
How about a Lotus like this. Basic and simple. And dynamite to drive.
Now that could be made very easily and sold at a sensible price. There is literally nothing to it. For something this exciting I would drive a daily shed if it meant affording this for the weekend. 
otolith said:
Which other successful independent non-mainstream brands survive on selling to twenty and thirty somethings? That market is stitched up by brands like Ford, Vauxhall, Renault and Mini. I don't see Lotus being able to sell a competitively priced hot hatch without a big selling turd to polish, and I can't see how it would get that volume, nor how the brand could survive selling so many turds and still be able to sell sports cars.
But at the same time they can't sell to pensioners without doubling the mass and price of the cars kitting them out will pile warming tech, motors to move their piles up, down, back and forwards, heaters to stop their heads falling off, compliant suspension to stop their hips shattering and Stanna designed exit points. Lotus as it is currently structured is totally f
ked in the UK. And if they remain selling most of their stock in Asia then why stay in Britain and pay those costs? The way they are currently structured needs them to either sell vastly more units or massively capital restructure the business to fit. If the option is to increase volumes what we do know is that they can't do this with existing models. And if we look at the sports car industry for data it is pure fantasy to think they can do it with more sports cars. If they are to remain structured as they are then they have to find volume from somewhere.
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