RE: Lotus jobs at risk
Discussion
k-ink said:
Back in the day the mk1 elise was what £22k? My mk2 111R was £27k. That is where I drew the line at spending. I think now days you would do well if you could hit the £24,995 price.
Inflation is the reason! The 111R came out 10 years ago, the mk1 15+ years ago, most car prices will have gone up.The trouble is that it is just so massively expensive to design, develop and type approve a new model that small manufacturers can never deliver the detail quality that customers want for the numbers they can sell. They just cannot get the economies of scale, so the future for new models and lower cost is bleak.
Perhaps Lotus, Noble, Ginetta and Caterham should link up at one engineering and manufacturing site to share the economies of scale for a range that consists of the 7, the G40, the Elise, the G55, the Noble M600.
The 7 and G40 could share power trains and brakes etc. The 7 the Elise and G40 could have Duratec power maybe.
More difficult for the G55 (which isn't a road car anyway) and the M600 to share but there maybe some opportunities in brakes, wheels etc. Perhaps the Ginetta G60 could fill a middle segment and share some components with the Noble?
Perhaps Lotus, Noble, Ginetta and Caterham should link up at one engineering and manufacturing site to share the economies of scale for a range that consists of the 7, the G40, the Elise, the G55, the Noble M600.
The 7 and G40 could share power trains and brakes etc. The 7 the Elise and G40 could have Duratec power maybe.
More difficult for the G55 (which isn't a road car anyway) and the M600 to share but there maybe some opportunities in brakes, wheels etc. Perhaps the Ginetta G60 could fill a middle segment and share some components with the Noble?
k-ink said:
It does not have to compete with an MX5 on price exactly. I think that would be unrealistic for a small company. But if say 5% of potential MX5 / BRZ customers wanted that sort of car, but lighter, more focussed (carpets etc but no heavy toys), better badge lets face it, plus were willing to pay a premium for that result, then cool.
Back in the day the mk1 elise was what £22k? My mk2 111R was £27k. That is where I drew the line at spending. I think now days you would do well if you could hit the £24,995 price. Do anything possible to make that happen. If the whole company was downsized to cut costs, only made one model, maybe outsourced some key components etc. Maybe even make key components in cheaper countries then assemble in the UK to drop the price even lower. Or even use an MX5 chassis direct from Mazda! GRP body, trick bits only Lotus could do etc.
Someone on SELOC earlier this year bought a brand new Lotus Elise 1.6 for £26,000. When looking at the retail price index, that's slightly less than they were asking for the standard S1 back in the day. Back in the day the mk1 elise was what £22k? My mk2 111R was £27k. That is where I drew the line at spending. I think now days you would do well if you could hit the £24,995 price. Do anything possible to make that happen. If the whole company was downsized to cut costs, only made one model, maybe outsourced some key components etc. Maybe even make key components in cheaper countries then assemble in the UK to drop the price even lower. Or even use an MX5 chassis direct from Mazda! GRP body, trick bits only Lotus could do etc.
Re the job losses - they're all from Lotus Engineering a company that does R&D work for other vehicle manufacturers. Having visited Hethel a few months ago, there was a thinly disguised Volkswagen Touran going in and out the gate all day long in addition to a large Hyundai and a 'Great Wall' whatever the hell that may be!
Re sales - people often look at UK sales and take those figures to be worldwide sales. The sales target for Lotus cars in 2014 is 2,000 units. They're going to hit this early around mid November. There was a open night at the Lotus dealer in Cheshire last night and they sold three new cars. Sales are doing fine and they were recruiting for the production line only a couple of months ago.
james_gt3rs said:
Inflation is the reason! The 111R came out 10 years ago, the mk1 15+ years ago, most car prices will have gone up.
I do get that. But it does not help, whatever the reason. People see a high price and run for the hills. Or buy used, which does not help Lotus. Really they need to make cars which lots can buy brand new, or they are in s
t. They must do that however they can. If that means Chinese made chassis tubs with final assembly in the UK so be it. Or just keep doing what they are doing and watch them die.
otolith said:
MJK 24 said:
Re the job losses - they're all from Lotus Engineering a company that does R&D work for other vehicle manufacturers.
I suspected that - they have been recruiting fairly recently for car production jobs.kambites said:
In a way that's even more worrying, since Lotus Engineering was always the profitable bit.
But has always been susceptible to variations in workload and as a result has often had to vary headcount. Perhaps they've looked at their numbers and found that utilisation is too low.GTEYE said:
k-ink said:
I supported Lotus back when their prices were sensible-ish. I had a new 111R for £27k. Once their prices went mental I lost all interest. The higher the prices the more people walk away, so they have to raise prices agin, etc. Now they are heading towards borderline high end exotica. It is a shame Lotus did not adopt the opposite policy: only build one model which many more could afford to buy. Then offer aftermarket upgrades, like Ford in USA do. They seem to go from grand plans to bust over and over. FFS, just make ONE SIMPLE CHEAP CAR. Forget high end. Forget making a whole range.
Something tells me this will go on forever. Maybe Ginetta or Caterham will take over where the Lotus Elise mk1 left off and put Lotus out of their misery.
+1Something tells me this will go on forever. Maybe Ginetta or Caterham will take over where the Lotus Elise mk1 left off and put Lotus out of their misery.
I don't really understand the current range or who exactly they are aimed at. There seem to be too many variations which seem to be crossing over each other. Nice enough car that the Elise and derivatives are, the prices just don't add up, and that is clearly reflected in the sales volumes.
Totally agree with the comment above, Lotus now more than ever need to keep it simple, and try to rebuild from there.
I understand they want to get into high end sports cars but not everyone has the £££ to spend 30K + on a base model.
A posh elise is £43k though
the Evroa is a crazy price and a poor old engine with crazy co2 levels and low mpg along with high tax
they need a new car, or they need a better Evora with a new engine and a £55k price, not the daft £67k for the Sports racers.
is a bad business plan.
there were plans to release a nicer Evora 18 months ago what every happened to Lotus ;-(
even the V6 exige is a bit over priced and does not fair well in the UK market, the performance lacking over the hype esp on lap times.
we need a new Evora with 360bhp (real) a weight of 1300kg with a sub 224 co2 and a £55k price all in.
the Evroa is a crazy price and a poor old engine with crazy co2 levels and low mpg along with high tax
they need a new car, or they need a better Evora with a new engine and a £55k price, not the daft £67k for the Sports racers.
is a bad business plan.
there were plans to release a nicer Evora 18 months ago what every happened to Lotus ;-(
even the V6 exige is a bit over priced and does not fair well in the UK market, the performance lacking over the hype esp on lap times.
we need a new Evora with 360bhp (real) a weight of 1300kg with a sub 224 co2 and a £55k price all in.
k-ink said:
I do get that. But it does not help, whatever the reason. People see a high price and run for the hills. Or buy used, which does not help Lotus.
Yep I bought a VX220 for a third of the price. The mistake they made with the new 1.6 Elise is that it's the slowest Elise ever made!I think the problem they have from a price point of view, is that the large manufacturers have been pushing economies of scale to new levels in the last twenty years so the price of almost every car on the market has fallen in real terms. The Elise costs almost exactly what it did when it was first released, which is now too much compared to the rest of the market.
They will never be able to compete on price with mass market manufacturers like Porsche. They need to ignore the pressure to build more mainstream cars and instead make their USP more compelling. But again, this story does not appear to be about Lotus cars, but about Lotus engineering consultancy.
chelme said:
Paracetamol said:
Lotus cars is all but dead...its only real hope was the Bahar plan. Fine- he was a bit extravagant, but with the right backing it would have worked. The new owners are clearly killing it and will probably stop to leave the consulting and engineering business. Total shame and a waste of a great brand...TVR the sequel..
Agreed. Bahar had the right vision, the others simply did not have the balls to persuade investors to deliver.Lotus are not a large-scale manufacturer and trying to drag them into the hands of 'slebs and footballers isn't going to win them big sales.
As said above, Lotus cars is set to hit sales targets this year, people are buying them - they can't compete with Porsche or even BMW because in terms of NVH, their product doesn't feel 'premium' enough. But in terms of feel and handling they can, and it's why they just about sell enough cars to stay afloat.
Going forward is about how they capitalise on their qualities, not dilute them for the mass market.
robertpaulson said:
yet the one company who does is about to fold due to the total lack of demand for the product in the marketplace
And the bit highlighted in bold is, i think, the important bit. British companies have successfully "re-invented" themselves for a new generation, and imo, Lotus must do the same. (ie JLR for example)Now, when you have a profitable model in your portfolio, you can afford to make a few, less profitable NICHE vehicles, but without the solid profit basis, sorry, but the "fun" stuff is just not going to work out on its own.
In the last 20 years, the competition from more mainstream cars has become incredibly intense. When the Elise was first launched back in 1996, the competition was laughable, and fuel costs, taxation, environmental concerns, and to a large degree road conditions (traffic, speed limits, attitudes to speeding) were very different.
In 2014, the Elise now sits in a very small niche. It's for those very few people who will put up with what is an expensive, and not very practical car (in the real world) and one whos pure sporting intent has been enormously eroded by the competition. These days, pretty much every car you buy "go well and handles well". In 1996, a plain old Golf gti for example would have struggled to even see which way an Elise went, today, rather less so.
It's quite clear that Lotus have 3 options:
1) Try and find a massive investment partner and make the Bahar option of becoming a new "ferrari" work. (Lets be honest, this isn't going to happen)
2) Cut their overheads massively, to suit the few thousand elises they make, and just continue doing this until they go bust
3) Try something new.
The option for "new" that seems a great fit with Lotus is a lightweight, low drag, "Eco" sports car, which is also currently a gap in an otherwise crowded market. Think current Exige chassis with a Ford ecoboost 3 cyl engine at say 150bhp, with a 50kW electric motor for town driving, with some new "aero" body work. Nail a 2 seat £35k, 50g/km hybrid that is cool looking and fun to drive and i think you could carve a niche for oneself, a niche with a good future rather than a prospect that is almost entirely historical.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 19th September 11:25
k-ink said:
I supported Lotus back when their prices were sensible-ish. I had a new 111R for £27k. Once their prices went mental I lost all interest. The higher the prices the more people walk away, so they have to raise prices agin, etc. Now they are heading towards borderline high end exotica. It is a shame Lotus did not adopt the opposite policy: only build one model which many more could afford to buy. Then offer aftermarket upgrades, like Ford in USA do. They seem to go from grand plans to bust over and over. FFS, just make ONE SIMPLE CHEAP CAR. Forget high end. Forget making a whole range.
Something tells me this will go on forever. Maybe Ginetta or Caterham will take over where the Lotus Elise mk1 left off and put Lotus out of their misery.
Spot on.Something tells me this will go on forever. Maybe Ginetta or Caterham will take over where the Lotus Elise mk1 left off and put Lotus out of their misery.
The original Elise saved the company. They need that again.
MJK 24 said:
Someone on SELOC earlier this year bought a brand new Lotus Elise 1.6 for £26,000. When looking at the retail price index, that's slightly less than they were asking for the standard S1 back in the day.
Re the job losses - they're all from Lotus Engineering a company that does R&D work for other vehicle manufacturers. Having visited Hethel a few months ago, there was a thinly disguised Volkswagen Touran going in and out the gate all day long in addition to a large Hyundai and a 'Great Wall' whatever the hell that may be!
Re sales - people often look at UK sales and take those figures to be worldwide sales. The sales target for Lotus cars in 2014 is 2,000 units. They're going to hit this early around mid November. There was a open night at the Lotus dealer in Cheshire last night and they sold three new cars. Sales are doing fine and they were recruiting for the production line only a couple of months ago.
You know nothing...Re the job losses - they're all from Lotus Engineering a company that does R&D work for other vehicle manufacturers. Having visited Hethel a few months ago, there was a thinly disguised Volkswagen Touran going in and out the gate all day long in addition to a large Hyundai and a 'Great Wall' whatever the hell that may be!
Re sales - people often look at UK sales and take those figures to be worldwide sales. The sales target for Lotus cars in 2014 is 2,000 units. They're going to hit this early around mid November. There was a open night at the Lotus dealer in Cheshire last night and they sold three new cars. Sales are doing fine and they were recruiting for the production line only a couple of months ago.
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