RE: Lotus jobs at risk
Discussion
wemorgan said:
IMHO Lotus should have beaten Alfa to the 4C by several years. Even the 2015 MX5 is similar weight to the Elise. As time passes on the difference between Lotus and its competitors has become less and less. Lotus need to reinforce their USPs - lightweight, performance, value. With that there should be a viable business for a 2000/yr OEM.
Recent Elises have got too heavy, though I think there will in reality still be a chunk more weight in the next MX-5. I think the Elise needs a new body, more power and some serious weight cutting - but that can't be at the expense of S1 levels of refinement, so it demands investment in re-engineering and spending on materials. For instance, Lotus have a titanium subframe prototype (for the Exige S, but the same could be done for the Elise), but how much would that add to the sticker price? Could the aluminium chassis be re-engineered in a different alloy? Could a Mazda style gram strategy be applied to the whole car? There are certainly bits which seem heavier than they need to be, the difference in weight between the OEM back box I removed and the 2bular I had fitted was pretty striking. Could the Evora's VVA architecture deliver a lighter car - maybe not, the Evora is a bit of a porker. otolith said:
Recent Elises have got too heavy,
134 bhp is where the problem lies - a truly miniscule power output for any £28,000 car today, let alone a sportscar. Base car comparison,Elise - 134 hp - £28,200 - 876 Kg
Boxster - 265 hp - £38,800 - 1,310 Kg
i.e
- One third more money, gets you
- Double the power, with only
- 50% more weight
Ozzie Osmond said:
otolith said:
Recent Elises have got too heavy,
134 bhp is where the problem lies - a truly miniscule power output for any £28,000 car today, let alone a sportscar. Base car comparison,Elise - 134 hp - £28,200 - 876 Kg
Boxster - 265 hp - £38,800 - 1,310 Kg
i.e
- One third more money, gets you
- Double the power, with only
- 50% more weight
Why compare cars with such a huge difference in price?
How does a £28k Boxster stack up against the base Elise? Oh, it doesn't as they don't make a model at the price point. Lotus do however make a supercharged Elise at £36,500 which has a power to weight ratio of about 255bhp per ton which is far superior to that of the Boxster above. The residual values of the Lotus can only be dreamt of by the Porsche buyer. I may be wrong but do Porsche still offer just a two year warranty compared to the industry standard of 3 years?
All this talk of old/new tech doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The whole point of Lotus is that it drives better than the rest and the Elise still does. It may be "old tech", however I have not seen anyone say that a Boxster, MX5 or 4C to be a better drive. Even the Exige with a modified Elise chassis is better than a 911, F Type etc.
Spending lots on new tech for the sake of it makes little sense to me. I don't think the reason for lack of sales has anything to do with technology as most of the buying public want something that is less focused, easier to get in and out of and has enough toys to impress their mates.
Spending lots on new tech for the sake of it makes little sense to me. I don't think the reason for lack of sales has anything to do with technology as most of the buying public want something that is less focused, easier to get in and out of and has enough toys to impress their mates.
Ozzie Osmond said:
otolith said:
Recent Elises have got too heavy,
134 bhp is where the problem lies - a truly miniscule power output for any £28,000 car today, let alone a sportscar. Base car comparison,Elise - 134 hp - £28,200 - 876 Kg
Boxster - 265 hp - £38,800 - 1,310 Kg
i.e
- One third more money, gets you
- Double the power, with only
- 50% more weight
SidewaysSi said:
Ozzie Osmond said:
otolith said:
Recent Elises have got too heavy,
134 bhp is where the problem lies - a truly miniscule power output for any £28,000 car today, let alone a sportscar. Base car comparison,Elise - 134 hp - £28,200 - 876 Kg
Boxster - 265 hp - £38,800 - 1,310 Kg
i.e
- One third more money, gets you
- Double the power, with only
- 50% more weight
wemorgan said:
IMHO Lotus should have beaten Alfa to the 4C by several years. Even the 2015 MX5 is similar weight to the Elise. As time passes on the difference between Lotus and its competitors has become less and less. Lotus need to reinforce their USPs - lightweight, performance, value. With that there should be a viable business for a 2000/yr OEM.
Whilst the press were all being kind to the 4C, there were a few reviews that basically said the Elise set the benchmark and the Alfa hadn't beaten it.At the moment they are a 2000/yr manufacturer, and the numbers are climbing steadily. Though the details are slim, this restructuring seems to be more about a downturn in engineering consultancy than demand for their cars.
I have been disappointed that all of the Lotus Engineering work on novel drivetrains has not fed back into the road cars - but I've no idea how much of that work is effectively owned by their clients.
There is a lack of compelling reasons for current owners to upgrade. I like the current car, but if I were going to buy another I would buy one of the supercharged 2ZZ models. A proper S3, with dramatic new styling, less weight and more power would be an upgrade on what I have or could buy used, and would also attract the buyers who want the latest shiny thing. They need to play to their strengths. The cars get a lot of benefit from being relatively light in terms of how they feel, but in terms of performance I think they need to hammer home the advantage of power to weight. Matching a comparatively priced hot hatch on acceleration with 60% of the power isn't enough for those who aren't cerebral enough to appreciate how lovely the handling is. Blowing it into the weeds with 80% of the power is a better sales proposition.
Ozzie Osmond said:
Let's illustrate the brand's "progress" another way,
Entry level 4-cylinder Lotus in 1984 - 160 bhp.
Entry level 4-cylinder Lotus in 2014 - 134 bhp.
Who else is trying to sell cars with LESS power than 30 years ago?
Different car. The Esprit was never the same car type as the Elise. Not a convincing analogy.Entry level 4-cylinder Lotus in 1984 - 160 bhp.
Entry level 4-cylinder Lotus in 2014 - 134 bhp.
Who else is trying to sell cars with LESS power than 30 years ago?
They sell a 220hp version for people who want power, many reviews say they prefer the vanilla power variant for tax, leasing and licence friendly road driving. People will find an excuse to fit whatever axe they want to grind.
Lack of disposable income for the yoof and disinterest sports cars/competence of ordinary cars.
Lack of disposable income for the yoof and disinterest sports cars/competence of ordinary cars.
I think that Lotus could do the following:
1. Base car, higher volume, aimed at the MX5 but better driving. Priced around £18-25k. Maybe using the Elise tub but with proper doors and accessability. Appreciate it will mean it does not drive as well but as long as it is better than the Mazda, that will be fine. A proper manual cloth roof and a few basic comforts. Lotus badge on the nose should make it big(ger) seller. Perhaps use the 134bhp Toyota engine. Like a Lotus "California".
2. The above will allow the Elise to go harder and chase Caterhams, Atoms etc. Track focused versions, removable windscreens, Nitrons/Ohlins etc. This will be the "458" of the range.
3. Keep the Exige as is - probably still the best trackable GT car out there.
Shouldn't cost too much in development but should broaden the range and increase sales. Forget Porsche as in the main they appeal to a different type of buyer.
1. Base car, higher volume, aimed at the MX5 but better driving. Priced around £18-25k. Maybe using the Elise tub but with proper doors and accessability. Appreciate it will mean it does not drive as well but as long as it is better than the Mazda, that will be fine. A proper manual cloth roof and a few basic comforts. Lotus badge on the nose should make it big(ger) seller. Perhaps use the 134bhp Toyota engine. Like a Lotus "California".
2. The above will allow the Elise to go harder and chase Caterhams, Atoms etc. Track focused versions, removable windscreens, Nitrons/Ohlins etc. This will be the "458" of the range.
3. Keep the Exige as is - probably still the best trackable GT car out there.
Shouldn't cost too much in development but should broaden the range and increase sales. Forget Porsche as in the main they appeal to a different type of buyer.
wemorgan said:
kambites said:
They did, it's called the Elise.
The 4C is today's technology and performance (body stiffness, NVH, crash safety etc).If Alfa (or anyone else) had actually succeeded in proving that CFRP works better than Aluminium and GRP in this market segment, I'd be all for Lotus going down that route, but as far as I can tell they haven't.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 21st September 16:06
SidewaysSi said:
Priced around £18-25k. Maybe using the Elise tub but with proper doors and accessability.
How on earth do you expect them to do that? Build a teleporter into the car to get people in? 
The Elise tub is too small with sills too high to make an MX5 competitor. You could base one on the Evora architecture but it'd probably end up no lighter than the MX5 and be at least 10k more expensive. If Lotus are going to go chasing the mainstream head on, they need to switch to a full steel spaceframe and the tooling costs would be astronomical.
Even if they overcome all those problems somehow, the thing would sitll end up mid-engined which would scare some people off and limits its practicality. They don't have access to a FR drivetrain. Maybe Toyota would sell them the GT86 drivetrain, but if they design a car around that, the end up completely reliant on Toyota continuing with that platform - Lotus couldn't afford to drop the platform after a few years if Toyota decided to ditch the GT86.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 21st September 16:14
kambites said:
SidewaysSi said:
Priced around £18-25k. Maybe using the Elise tub but with proper doors and accessability.
How on earth do you expect them to do that? Build a teleporter into the car to get people in? The Elise tub is too small with sills too high to make an MX5 competitor. You could base one on the Evora architecture but it'd probably end up no lighter than the MX5 and be at least 10k more expensive. If Lotus are going to go chasing the mainstream head on, they need to switch to a full steel spaceframe and the tooling costs would be astronomical.
Even if they overcome all those problems somehow, the thing would sitll end up mid-engined which would scare some people off and limits its practicality. They don't have access to a FR drivetrain. Maybe Toyota would sell them the GT86 drivetrain, but if they design a car around that, the end up completely reliant on Toyota continuing with that platform - Lotus couldn't afford to drop the platform after a few years if Toyota decided to ditch the GT86.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 21st September 16:14
It was what I would love to see them do. Whether it is remotely practicable, I'm sure only they truly know. But if anyone can, they can.
SidewaysSi said:
I think that Lotus could do the following:
1. Base car, higher volume, aimed at the MX5 but better driving. Priced around £18-25k. Maybe using the Elise tub but with proper doors and accessability.
Trouble is, I think if they could make a profit selling Elise based cars for 18k they wouldn't be in the mess they are in!1. Base car, higher volume, aimed at the MX5 but better driving. Priced around £18-25k. Maybe using the Elise tub but with proper doors and accessability.
kambites said:
Even if they overcome all those problems somehow, the thing would sitll end up mid-engined which would scare some people off and limits its practicality.
Amongst the oddities is that Evora's platform was supposed to be very flexible and adaptable, allowing use for front or mid-engine applications. Yet it's never been flexed or adapted - presumably because it's too expensive a starting point unless you can sell cars built on it for £60,000 or more. It really is a great shame."The VVA architecture has been designed so that it can be stretched in width, length and height. The strength and stiffness of the low volume VVA chassis can be modified cost effectively by varying the wall thickness of the extrusions, without altering the exterior dimensions. Combining the ability to lengthen or shorten extrusions with the option to tailor the chassis stiffness, vastly increases the number of vehicles that could be developed from this vehicle architecture. Front and mid engine installations have been considered, as well as hybrid and electric vehicle (EV) applications."
http://www.lotuscars.com/gb/engineering/vehicle-pl...
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