RE: Lotus jobs at risk
Discussion
blueg33 said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
blueg33 said:
The point I was trying to make, was that I dont think Lotus could have provided a TVR type of car. The Evora S is probably in the price range of say a TVR Tuscan and and Espirit would have had to be even more expensive.
utter tosh there a small volume sports car makerno reason they could not have made a "focused" front mid engine i6 or V8 enthusiast focused sports car, it could even have shared a lot of components with the esprit
but no far better to keep using the same tiny bath tub and keep painting it different colours, if morgan can come out with the odd new model how can lotus not do it with their expertise??
The Lotus DNA is not brute power, unlike TVR
I agree that today Lotus are about low power but great handling with low weight but again this is the exact opposite of the market.
In essence, Lotus arrive at every Top Trumps playground game wearing a dress, NHS spectacles and a speech impediment.
Right or wrong, (wrong) the market does value products like cars via Top Trymps simplicity. Having to point out low weight and great handling is never going to counter 10 gears, 8 exhaust pipes and 1000 bhp.
Dave Hedgehog said:
blueg33 said:
The Lotus DNA is not brute power, unlike TVR
some of the esprits where pretty bloody bonkers quick, especially in the period they where being sold, if they didnt go bang, which is something else they have in common with TVR lola market opened up, they had the skill sets to take advantage of it, they did not
and look where rehasing the same car over and over has got them
DonkeyApple said:
And yet, the car most people would have put in their wall was the one with the big power?
I agree that today Lotus are about low power but great handling with low weight but again this is the exact opposite of the market.
In essence, Lotus arrive at every Top Trumps playground game wearing a dress, NHS spectacles and a speech impediment.
Right or wrong, (wrong) the market does value products like cars via Top Trymps simplicity. Having to point out low weight and great handling is never going to counter 10 gears, 8 exhaust pipes and 1000 bhp.
which is why they needed a halo car once the elise started to make money in the early daysI agree that today Lotus are about low power but great handling with low weight but again this is the exact opposite of the market.
In essence, Lotus arrive at every Top Trumps playground game wearing a dress, NHS spectacles and a speech impediment.
Right or wrong, (wrong) the market does value products like cars via Top Trymps simplicity. Having to point out low weight and great handling is never going to counter 10 gears, 8 exhaust pipes and 1000 bhp.
reflected glory an all that, lift the brand image etc
Dave Hedgehog said:
and look where rehasing the same car over and over has got them
The fast Esprits that you talk of were also a re-hash of a car which had been on sale for decades. At least the Evora was an all-new car, relatively recently.
I'd love to see Lotus have a go at producing an F458 competitor, I suppose using the Lexus RC-F engine with a third-party gearbox (maybe the 8-speed ZF 'box everyone raves about), but they'd need to be at least vaguely financially stable before they can even think of that sort of investment.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th September 18:12
F1GTRUeno said:
If Lotus went, would anyone really notice?
They should be happy they made it this long, they're not really relevant in the modern age.
The badge means absolutely naff all to anyone apart from established fans of the brand and when that's the case, you can't really survive.
Given their engineering department has consulted for every major manufacturer, and Lotus patented technology is used in many cars, not to mention one or two 'halo' models that have actually had more input from the boys in Norfolk than the manufacturers that sell them would like to admit... yes we would notice.They should be happy they made it this long, they're not really relevant in the modern age.
The badge means absolutely naff all to anyone apart from established fans of the brand and when that's the case, you can't really survive.
Their dynamic skill is still industry leading, and whilst the package may be underrated, the reviews consistently rate the current range as great driver's cars. The brand has been hammered in the last decade, but personally I think it still means a lot. When people stop you when you're filling up with petrol to ask "What's your car, it's cool!", they know the Lotus name.
F1GTRUeno said:
If Lotus went, would anyone really notice?
They should be happy they made it this long, they're not really relevant in the modern age.
The badge means absolutely naff all to anyone apart from established fans of the brand and when that's the case, you can't really survive.
There are still some who would miss them, personally they are about the only company making cars I could give a toss about, and there's nobody else really doing anything similar. They should be happy they made it this long, they're not really relevant in the modern age.
The badge means absolutely naff all to anyone apart from established fans of the brand and when that's the case, you can't really survive.
DonkeyApple said:
In essence, Lotus arrive at every Top Trumps playground game wearing a dress, NHS spectacles and a speech impediment.
Only since they gave up the thundering Esprit V8. But the 134 bhp Elise for nearly £30,000 does them no favours at all.Mind you, by the time Esprit left the playground it was looking like a Hollywood school movie - 30 year old actors playing the part of 15 year old kids.
DonkeyApple said:
The other interesting point is about the shop windows. They are spot on that you can't sell a product if you don't have enough or the right type of shop windows.
I had no idea that they had pretty much no sales outlets.
Lotus Cars exist in a strange netherworld of being too large operate as a Caterham, Radical, Ginetta type single outlet operation but do not have the scale (or margin) to make a proper national sales network viable. The business as pointed out by many either needs to grow volumes massively or shrink down to match sales. I had no idea that they had pretty much no sales outlets.
I find it massively surprising that the small provincial towns of Birmingham, Nottingham and Sheffield have no Lotus dealer. Looking at the listed dealers it strikes me that most must surely consider new Lotus sales a secondary or even tertiary activity which is surely a bad sign for the long term health of the business. I thought the DB era cull of dealers was supposed to introduce consistent standards and brand image yet it appears to shifted most outlets into converted industrial units, barns and the odd used car lot. Admittedly the network still has the odd exception Bell & Colvin / JCT Leeds.
Tuna said:
Given their engineering department has consulted for every major manufacturer, and Lotus patented technology is used in many cars, not to mention one or two 'halo' models that have actually had more input from the boys in Norfolk than the manufacturers that sell them would like to admit... yes we would notice.
Their dynamic skill is still industry leading, and whilst the package may be underrated, the reviews consistently rate the current range as great driver's cars. The brand has been hammered in the last decade, but personally I think it still means a lot. When people stop you when you're filling up with petrol to ask "What's your car, it's cool!", they know the Lotus name.
Could the engineering arm not simply survive on it's own (it's pretty much independent from Lotus Cars anyway isn't it?)Their dynamic skill is still industry leading, and whilst the package may be underrated, the reviews consistently rate the current range as great driver's cars. The brand has been hammered in the last decade, but personally I think it still means a lot. When people stop you when you're filling up with petrol to ask "What's your car, it's cool!", they know the Lotus name.
Stop making cars but step up their consultancy to other brands, other tech, racing teams, etc.
The fans of the cars don't even buy the cars because they don't make sense in the modern age and they're too expensive. It's a shame because I love the way the Evora looks but it's far too expensive and they can't keep making the Elise/Exige, rehashing it forever.
b0rk said:
DonkeyApple said:
The other interesting point is about the shop windows. They are spot on that you can't sell a product if you don't have enough or the right type of shop windows.
I had no idea that they had pretty much no sales outlets.
Lotus Cars exist in a strange netherworld of being too large operate as a Caterham, Radical, Ginetta type single outlet operation but do not have the scale (or margin) to make a proper national sales network viable. The business as pointed out by many either needs to grow volumes massively or shrink down to match sales. I had no idea that they had pretty much no sales outlets.
I find it massively surprising that the small provincial towns of Birmingham, Nottingham and Sheffield have no Lotus dealer. Looking at the listed dealers it strikes me that most must surely consider new Lotus sales a secondary or even tertiary activity which is surely a bad sign for the long term health of the business. I thought the DB era cull of dealers was supposed to introduce consistent standards and brand image yet it appears to shifted most outlets into converted industrial units, barns and the odd used car lot. Admittedly the network still has the odd exception Bell & Colvin / JCT Leeds.
Increasing shop window coverage will lead to higher sales. So how to do that without the enormous initial outlay?
I guess even using a national multi marque dealer network is still too expensive for them or surely they would have done this by now?
kambites said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
and look where rehasing the same car over and over has got them
The fast Esprits that you talk of were also a re-hash of a car which had been on sale for decades. At least the Evora was an all-new car, relatively recently.
I'd love to see Lotus have a go at producing an F458 competitor, I suppose using the Lexus RC-F engine with a third-party gearbox (maybe the 8-speed ZF 'box everyone raves about), but they'd need to be at least vaguely financially stable before they can even think of that sort of investment.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 24th September 18:12
Everyone raved about the successor to the esprit, no one raved about the successor to the Elise or Europa or whatever.
They do need a product that will get everyone excited and get non Lotus fans talking about them again.
I think their current cars are wonderful but they cater for such a small sector of the car vying public that they are never ever going to grow sales to the numbers they need to grow and expand with these models.
DonkeyApple said:
Agree 100%.
Increasing shop window coverage will lead to higher sales. So how to do that without the enormous initial outlay?
I guess even using a national multi marque dealer network is still too expensive for them or surely they would have done this by now?
I've been working on a proposal for addressing the shop window issue for the last year, but work for other clients has kept me far too busy to put down something coherent. For the car division it's the core problem to my mind - all the discussions about the perfect next model miss out the basic fact that people aren't in a position to see, experience and buy an existing range that is rated as well as the competition in most reviews.Increasing shop window coverage will lead to higher sales. So how to do that without the enormous initial outlay?
I guess even using a national multi marque dealer network is still too expensive for them or surely they would have done this by now?
Tuna said:
I've been working on a proposal for addressing the shop window issue for the last year, but work for other clients has kept me far too busy to put down something coherent. For the car division it's the core problem to my mind - all the discussions about the perfect next model miss out the basic fact that people aren't in a position to see, experience and buy an existing range that is rated as well as the competition in most reviews.
Exactly. Buyers of mid level sports cars don't even know Lotus exist. Shop front is a key part of the marketing. Marketing was ther first point I made in this thread. I know its a small sample, but my Porsche owing mates have all been impressed by the Evora.
Month ago I rented a Boxster S for a day. This made me understood why people prefer Porsche to Lotus. Boxster is also handling quite well and the feel of the car is on a high level (not so brilliant as the Elise, but much better than Z4 or SLK). At the same time you have a posh interior, decent sound isolation and all other small things you can live everyday with. It is much more compromised car, but still outstanding compared to standard saloons. For those, who are not that much pistonheads as me, the Boxster is the most logic choice.
However, you can never get in it the emotions, you get in the small Lotus. It is the car for joy, a toy in fact, and everyone of my friends is happy to have a drive with me, but 99% of them even don't think of buying one due to its hardcore unpractical character.
As for me, I would go the Porsche way to save the future of the company: in order to continue production of its fabulous unrivalled sportscars, Lotus needs to sell some everyday compromised cars, I would even say ok to a Lotus SUV, if it helps to save the company. Russia and China will give lots of cash for SUVs, believe me)))
However, you can never get in it the emotions, you get in the small Lotus. It is the car for joy, a toy in fact, and everyone of my friends is happy to have a drive with me, but 99% of them even don't think of buying one due to its hardcore unpractical character.
As for me, I would go the Porsche way to save the future of the company: in order to continue production of its fabulous unrivalled sportscars, Lotus needs to sell some everyday compromised cars, I would even say ok to a Lotus SUV, if it helps to save the company. Russia and China will give lots of cash for SUVs, believe me)))
El comandante said:
Month ago I rented a Boxster S for a day. This made me understood why people prefer Porsche to Lotus. Boxster is also handling quite well and the feel of the car is on a high level (not so brilliant as the Elise, but much better than Z4 or SLK). At the same time you have a posh interior, decent sound isolation and all other small things you can live everyday with. It is much more compromised car, but still outstanding compared to standard saloons. For those, who are not that much pistonheads as me, the Boxster is the most logic choice.
However, you can never get in it the emotions, you get in the small Lotus. It is the car for joy, a toy in fact, and everyone of my friends is happy to have a drive with me, but 99% of them even don't think of buying one due to its hardcore unpractical character.
As for me, I would go the Porsche way to save the future of the company: in order to continue production of its fabulous unrivalled sportscars, Lotus needs to sell some everyday compromised cars, I would even say ok to a Lotus SUV, if it helps to save the company. Russia and China will give lots of cash for SUVs, believe me)))
Imagine a RWD, mid engined, tubbed SUV. However, you can never get in it the emotions, you get in the small Lotus. It is the car for joy, a toy in fact, and everyone of my friends is happy to have a drive with me, but 99% of them even don't think of buying one due to its hardcore unpractical character.
As for me, I would go the Porsche way to save the future of the company: in order to continue production of its fabulous unrivalled sportscars, Lotus needs to sell some everyday compromised cars, I would even say ok to a Lotus SUV, if it helps to save the company. Russia and China will give lots of cash for SUVs, believe me)))
I drove a Boxster. It was such a great car I thought I was in a Golf Diesel and fell asleep.
As you say, the Lotus is the superior car but the Porsche is the infinitely superior utility vehicle. If you can have two cars then I can't imagine you'd have a Boxster as your second, fun car as it's too similar to your daily hack but then if you can only have one car the Lotus is too extreme.
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