RE: Lotus jobs at risk
Discussion
iloveboost said:
I think the reason why most people don't buy an Elise but talk positively about one is because although we're always being told how good they are, they are a really expensive toy. I think most enthusiasts would rather buy a used Toyota Mr2 instead as it's many times cheaper, has the same powertrain/layout and is usable day to day. It doesn't really make sense to buy an Elise unless you've got loads of spare cash.
I thought it was the other way round - people would rather buy an Elise and only buy an MR2 if they can't afford one. That was certainly the case for me. I don't see the point in Lotus trying to jump into anyone else market, cars are already too samey these days, we need companies like Lotus who make things a bit different- especially concentrating on dynamics.
otolith said:
Just seems to me that if you can't get many people to favour dynamics over toys and comfort in a sports car it's going to be even harder in more practical segments.
Very true. Percentage wise it'll be tiny. But the key is that you'd be targeting millions not thousands so you'd get the volume that you need. Lotus will never sell 10,000 exiges in a year but you would a hatchback.
If you look at what 20 something's are buying they are paying premiums for Minis and other trendy three doors. A Lotus would be the king of that sector. Faster, lighter, cooler.
I'm not thinking that they would get the volumes of those big firms but they'd get the volumes to justify their employee count and running costs. Plus, it would only benefit the sportscar sales.
Realistically, they couldn't get the volume of sales to build their own car, so they'd have to rebadge someone else's, with all the compromises that implies - which means it couldn't be constructionaly lighter than a mainstream model, merely decontented. So it would effectively be something like a Megane R26R, which was a bit of a flop and nothing that the mainstream couldn't punt out just as well. I'm just not seeing how they can add value to that proposition.
otolith said:
Realistically, they couldn't get the volume of sales to build their own car, so they'd have to rebadge someone else's, with all the compromises that implies - which means it couldn't be constructionaly lighter than a mainstream model, merely decontented. So it would effectively be something like a Megane R26R, which was a bit of a flop and nothing that the mainstream couldn't punt out just as well. I'm just not seeing how they can add value to that proposition.
Yes, sticking Lotus badges and body kits into someone else's car is a means to short term, modest revenue boost but not any kind of long term strategy. Having said that, look at the same product via a different arrival as after market tuning is now very big business as it allows the mass produced car that you bought to promote your individualism and tell the world something important about you can be further personalised to promote your superior individuality and message. Carving a name akin to Brabus would have been a very serious option. The message of adding lightness and handling would have been the near perfect slogan and marketing backbone to promote such a product. I wouldn't get directly into bed with a specific manufacturer and build my version of their car on their production line, as you say, it often doesn't work and is just a badging exercise that weakens the brand. What I would have done is selected the suitable car(s) in the open market and set up shop as the defacto, ultimate tuner for that car.
I guess that if you look at the Ford Focus for example, could Lotus deliver a package that was better than Ford's own super hatch version or could such a brand carry the cost of the Lotus tuning package?
The Mini on the other hand probably has more owners with the propensity to splash the cash and a stronger desire to be an individual. I think that if you look at the Mini it would be quite easy to remove a lot of weight and tweak some bits of it.
The really interesting thing about the Lotus ethos of adding lightness is that it is deeply historic for the brand and the most perfect fit to the 21st century's mantra and religion of economy and pollution. And yet Lotus has not capitalised in this perfect crossing of paths. They should be the absolute king of Eco in the car world, small efficient engines, low weight. It fits them so perfectly that it is staggering that they have never built upon it.
Lotus Engineering could have made itself the go to company to design your Eco friendly dull car and also spice it up with a very potent brand.
So I do feel that the Engineering arm has missed out completely on the biggest revolution of the 21st century where they could have been king and that Cars has also missed out by not finding the right solution to deliver an everyday, practical product to massively boost their volumes and stabilise their business.
otolith said:
What they could really do with for the small car is a two litre turbo with just enough hybrid assistance to completely remove the impression of turbocharging - but they'd need to lose some weight elsewhere to make up for it.
The other hurdle is that the way to remove weight is to remove all the heavy electric motors used in modern cars to counter that fact the modern human can no longer move a seat unassisted, has to have one part of the interior a different temp to another and cannot put a roof on a car. The real difference between the Lotus and the Porsche is that when someone who has never seen or heard of either and knows nothing of the respective brands mantras sits in each on and takes it for a drive they will think the Porsche is normal to special as it has everything expected in a road car that defines it as being valuable. It has cruise control, electric seats, roof, etc etc etc. on the other hand, the Lotus is likely to be mistaken as a cheap, backward product from Eastern Europe or some weird Asian country. Such is the world of the ignoramus.
Craikeybaby said:
I don't see the point in Lotus trying to jump into anyone else market, cars are already too samey these days, we need companies like Lotus who make things a bit different- especially concentrating on dynamics.
Lotus have crippled themselves many times by trying to invent new niches which simply don't exist or are just too small, including the front wheel drive sportscar and mid-engine 4-seat coupe. The cars which have worked for them are either conventional 2-seat sportscars or re-worked models of everyday saloons.The issue facing Lotus is simply product which doesn't appeal to customers. I don't think the answer lies in "uberdynamics" at all - look at the expensive lifestyle SUVs which people are flocking to buy these days - about as dynamic as a bag of sand, but that's where the money is going. Range Rover Evoque is a classic example of design which attracts customers.
(No, I'm not suggesting Lotus build an SUV. Just a useable modern sportscar.)
Why not make an SUV?
Surely it is a premium segment that is a sitting duck for a brand like Lotus?
There are enormous weight savings to be made, better handling to be found and all in a premium sector awash with cash.
Lotus could easily make an SUV that is faster and more economical than anyone wake because of heir brand ethos. JLR or Porsche could never remove all those heavy luxuries that define them but Lotus perversely would never be able to add them.
I do think it is an argument with merit.
They could do it with the Dacia Duster.
Surely it is a premium segment that is a sitting duck for a brand like Lotus?
There are enormous weight savings to be made, better handling to be found and all in a premium sector awash with cash.
Lotus could easily make an SUV that is faster and more economical than anyone wake because of heir brand ethos. JLR or Porsche could never remove all those heavy luxuries that define them but Lotus perversely would never be able to add them.
I do think it is an argument with merit.
They could do it with the Dacia Duster.
DonkeyApple said:
The real difference between the Lotus and the Porsche is that when someone who has never seen or heard of either and knows nothing of the respective brands mantras sits in each on and takes it for a drive they will think the Porsche is normal to special as it has everything expected in a road car that defines it as being valuable. It has cruise control, electric seats, roof, etc etc etc. on the other hand, the Lotus is likely to be mistaken as a cheap, backward product from Eastern Europe or some weird Asian country. Such is the world of the ignoramus.
I agree - the impressive thing about Porsches is that they are so ordinary, but it's also a large part of what puts me off them. I don't think Lotus can compete on that basis, it's not what they're good at and its a poor fit with their brand values. They need to make more mileage from the less cerebral benefits of their core values and competences. Fibreglass bodywork should enable them to change the styling at lower cost than pressed steel, so why has the Elise only had two bodies? It should also give them more freedom in shape, so why not make the next one more radical in appearance? Low mass gets decent emissions and allows lovely unassisted steering and keeps the fuel economy and use of consumables nice, but making the car go like stink is a more obvious benefit. Porsche will give you an interior like an Audi. Lotus giving you one like a Ford would be second rate, so don't do it. Keep it minimalist, but make it stylish and distinctive and find nice materials for what there is. "Because pseudo-race-car" will sell to shallow people. Make it a bit easier to get in and out of, but not so much that it doesn't feel like an occasion. In other words, go for the impression of full-on mini-exotic with just enough practically not to scare the horses and make sure that it makes anything else you can buy for the same money feel slow and ordinary.
otolith said:
OK, Lotus build an F-type rival - why would someone buy that over the jag?
I guess it depends on what is meant by a rival. Lotus would need to bring their DNA to it. I wasn't that keen on the F type. Its too heavy and feels it, I didn't like the gearbox either. But Jag buyers want the auto box and the bling. I doubt Lotus could easily bring those things. I think oits tricky to see a niche that Lotus should aim at. Maybe the MX5 needs a competitor that feels more achievable in terms of power trains, weight etc, pluis they have some great historic converttible car styling to draw upon. Look how successful the retro style mini, fiat 500 and beetle are. Use elan styling in a 21st century car priced at £25k ish.
otolith said:
I agree - the impressive thing about Porsches is that they are so ordinary, but it's also a large part of what puts me off them. I don't think Lotus can compete on that basis, it's not what they're good at and its a poor fit with their brand values. They need to make more mileage from the less cerebral benefits of their core values and competences. Fibreglass bodywork should enable them to change the styling at lower cost than pressed steel, so why has the Elise only had two bodies? It should also give them more freedom in shape, so why not make the next one more radical in appearance? Low mass gets decent emissions and allows lovely unassisted steering and keeps the fuel economy and use of consumables nice, but making the car go like stink is a more obvious benefit. Porsche will give you an interior like an Audi. Lotus giving you one like a Ford would be second rate, so don't do it. Keep it minimalist, but make it stylish and distinctive and find nice materials for what there is. "Because pseudo-race-car" will sell to shallow people. Make it a bit easier to get in and out of, but not so much that it doesn't feel like an occasion.
In other words, go for the impression of full-on mini-exotic with just enough practically not to scare the horses and make sure that it makes anything else you can buy for the same money feel slow and ordinary.
To me, you are describing the Evora!!In other words, go for the impression of full-on mini-exotic with just enough practically not to scare the horses and make sure that it makes anything else you can buy for the same money feel slow and ordinary.
The Evora looks a bit awkward from certain angles, which I think does have an impact on sales. Re-style it towards that Elan concept, and offer a roadster version, and suddenly Lotus has a mini-Gallardo on its hands. The layout, performance, ride and handling and drivetrain do not need to be changed (other than taking advantage of further efficiency gains and hybrid tech from Toyota as it develops).
braddo said:
otolith said:
I agree - the impressive thing about Porsches is that they are so ordinary, but it's also a large part of what puts me off them. I don't think Lotus can compete on that basis, it's not what they're good at and its a poor fit with their brand values. They need to make more mileage from the less cerebral benefits of their core values and competences. Fibreglass bodywork should enable them to change the styling at lower cost than pressed steel, so why has the Elise only had two bodies? It should also give them more freedom in shape, so why not make the next one more radical in appearance? Low mass gets decent emissions and allows lovely unassisted steering and keeps the fuel economy and use of consumables nice, but making the car go like stink is a more obvious benefit. Porsche will give you an interior like an Audi. Lotus giving you one like a Ford would be second rate, so don't do it. Keep it minimalist, but make it stylish and distinctive and find nice materials for what there is. "Because pseudo-race-car" will sell to shallow people. Make it a bit easier to get in and out of, but not so much that it doesn't feel like an occasion.
In other words, go for the impression of full-on mini-exotic with just enough practically not to scare the horses and make sure that it makes anything else you can buy for the same money feel slow and ordinary.
To me, you are describing the Evora!!In other words, go for the impression of full-on mini-exotic with just enough practically not to scare the horses and make sure that it makes anything else you can buy for the same money feel slow and ordinary.
The Evora looks a bit awkward from certain angles, which I think does have an impact on sales. Re-style it towards that Elan concept, and offer a roadster version, and suddenly Lotus has a mini-Gallardo on its hands. The layout, performance, ride and handling and drivetrain do not need to be changed (other than taking advantage of further efficiency gains and hybrid tech from Toyota as it develops).
And move like lightning to squeeze Porsche in the middle.
Create a sportscar empire.
McLaren take the top-end sportscar sales (911).
Jaguar take the mid-range barges and SUVs (Cayenne).
Lotus take the entry-level sportscars (Boxster-Cayman).
Highly unlikely to happen, however. Britain does not seem to have the hunger for manufacturing anymore.
otolith said:
DonkeyApple said:
The real difference between the Lotus and the Porsche is that when someone who has never seen or heard of either and knows nothing of the respective brands mantras sits in each on and takes it for a drive they will think the Porsche is normal to special as it has everything expected in a road car that defines it as being valuable. It has cruise control, electric seats, roof, etc etc etc. on the other hand, the Lotus is likely to be mistaken as a cheap, backward product from Eastern Europe or some weird Asian country. Such is the world of the ignoramus.
I agree - the impressive thing about Porsches is that they are so ordinary, but it's also a large part of what puts me off them. I don't think Lotus can compete on that basis, it's not what they're good at and its a poor fit with their brand values. They need to make more mileage from the less cerebral benefits of their core values and competences. Fibreglass bodywork should enable them to change the styling at lower cost than pressed steel, so why has the Elise only had two bodies? It should also give them more freedom in shape, so why not make the next one more radical in appearance? Low mass gets decent emissions and allows lovely unassisted steering and keeps the fuel economy and use of consumables nice, but making the car go like stink is a more obvious benefit. Porsche will give you an interior like an Audi. Lotus giving you one like a Ford would be second rate, so don't do it. Keep it minimalist, but make it stylish and distinctive and find nice materials for what there is. "Because pseudo-race-car" will sell to shallow people. Make it a bit easier to get in and out of, but not so much that it doesn't feel like an occasion. In other words, go for the impression of full-on mini-exotic with just enough practically not to scare the horses and make sure that it makes anything else you can buy for the same money feel slow and ordinary.
There are definitely a fair number of people like me who are put off Lotus' current offering because they are too small.
blueg33 said:
otolith said:
OK, Lotus build an F-type rival - why would someone buy that over the jag?
I guess it depends on what is meant by a rival. Lotus would need to bring their DNA to it. I wasn't that keen on the F type. Its too heavy and feels it, I didn't like the gearbox either. But Jag buyers want the auto box and the bling. I doubt Lotus could easily bring those things. otolith said:
blueg33 said:
otolith said:
OK, Lotus build an F-type rival - why would someone buy that over the jag?
I guess it depends on what is meant by a rival. Lotus would need to bring their DNA to it. I wasn't that keen on the F type. Its too heavy and feels it, I didn't like the gearbox either. But Jag buyers want the auto box and the bling. I doubt Lotus could easily bring those things. DonkeyApple said:
Not if you're going to fill it with gizmos. The market is flooded with gadget laden large sports cars. But I so think there is a market for car with the lotus ethos.
The problem is, the "Lotus Ethos" is to avoid adding anything which isn't strictly necessary and to keep making things lighter until something breaks... it leads ot cars like the Elise both in terms of their level of comfort and their tendency to fall to bits. Lotus chassis setup isn't magic - as soon as they build a car with the NVH and build quality to compete with the mainstream manufacturers, it wont drive significantly better than the cars it's trying to compete with. I suppose you could say that ultimately the Lotus Ethos is to build cars badly. Above all else, Chapman was renowned for his willingness to keep making things weaker and weaker... usually until someone died. I kinda hope they don't go to that extent these days (although toe-link failures on the Elise have done some damage) but the general idea is still much the same.
Edited by kambites on Saturday 27th September 18:32
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
Not if you're going to fill it with gizmos. The market is flooded with gadget laden large sports cars. But I so think there is a market for car with the lotus ethos.
The problem is, the "Lotus Ethos" is to avoid adding anything which isn't strictly necessary and to keep making things lighter until something breaks... it leads ot cars like the Elise both in terms of their level of comfort and their tendency to fall to bits. Lotus chassis setup isn't magic - as soon as they build a car with the NVH and build quality to compete with the mainstream manufacturers, it wont drive significantly better than the cars it's trying to compete with.I suppose you could say that ultimately the Lotus Ethos is to build cars badly. Above all else, Chapman was renowned for his willingness to keep making things weaker and weaker... usually until someone died. I kinda hope they don't go to that extent these days (although toe-link failures on the Elise have done some damage) but the general idea is still much the same.
blueg33 said:
I don't get the bit I have high;ighted in bold. If your point is weight then I think the Evora disproves the theory, it is slightly heavier than a Cayman and quite a bit heavier than the latest 911, but still have the Lotus driving dynamics. Built quality post 2012 is good, and TBH its not that bad pre 2012
I was thinking more of the comments about an F-type competitor. The Porsches you're comparing the Evora to are light cars by today's standards and whilst they're hardly stripped out, they're not exactly luxury cruisers either. Lotus are very good at setting cars up, but if they try to build a 1.6 tonne GT it aint gonna drive like an Elise (obviously). Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff