RE: Lotus jobs at risk
Discussion
moribund said:
- The new cars are too expensive. Yet adjusted for inflation they are exactly the same price as they were in the late 90's. If you want to see a car which is now more expensive for the same package, see Porsche not Lotus.
WTF do Lotus need to do to survive when we're all so keen to stab them in the back with ill informed crap, and we're the bloody enthusiasts??
WTF do Lotus need to do to survive when we're all so keen to stab them in the back with ill informed crap, and we're the bloody enthusiasts??
In 1994 an Esprit cost around £50k and they sold all they could make. Twenty years later an Evora costs around £50k and virtually all are heading for export.I'm surprised there isn't a successful PH small car company by now as it seems to be choc full of experts.
I think that's the big problem with the Evora. The original car was a mistake - it was released before it was ready, leading the media to report it (quite rightly) as poorly built, and it was too slow for the market it naturally competes in. Had they started out with the car that the Evora S has now become, I think it might have been viewed a a genuine 911C2 competitor for several tens of thousands of pounds less.
If Lotus need to learn one thing, it's that when trying to break into a higher priced market, it's not acceptable to use their early customers as their last phase of product test.
If Lotus need to learn one thing, it's that when trying to break into a higher priced market, it's not acceptable to use their early customers as their last phase of product test.
I wonder how many millions Lotus spent trying to expand into a wide model range? If they invested all of that money into a single car they would no doubt have been able to improve their economies of scale. Personally I'd pour everything into the most affordable single design I could come up with. Get Gordon Murray on board - he seems full of efficient production ideas. Build parts abroad and assemble in the UK. There MUST be solutions to getting the costs down to acceptable levels. If there isn't you can kiss Lotus goodbye imho.
To those who simply get angry what are your ideas?
To those who simply get angry what are your ideas?
Personally, I think Lotus Cars are already doing the right thing - focusing abroad. They've made such a mess of their UK market that it's going to be almost impossible to recover it in the short term so I don't think there's much point in trying. They need to get the Evora selling as much as possible in the far East.
HeMightBeBanned said:
Inertiatic said:
many just want a coupe/droptop/SUV (insert type of car) with a "prestige" badge so they can be "me too" when picking up the kids from school. Lotus, somehow, doesn't seem to fit the bill??
I'm the coolest parent in the carpark when I go to pick up my daughter from school in my 15 year old Elise. In a sea of German execs, coupes and 4WDs its my plastic toy that gets the admiring glances. Isn't the world a very different place to how it was in say 1997 when the Elise was launched?
People are i think busier, our roads are more crowded and social acceptance of "speed" has, imo, fallen significantly. Also, competition in the market for all types of car has never been harder. More and more companies offer cars that could suit a range of people, cars have become "Multi-tasking" to a large degree and less one-trick-ponies. Then, you have to consider the demands and opportunities for people to spend money outside of there car. In 2014, there are now so many demands on peoples money, be that getting on the ever more crowded housing ladder, or on holidays, hobbies or sports etc, all of which the internet brings direct to peoples sofas like never before.
In 1997, you could sell a sports car simply on how well it drove. Today i'm not sure, outside of a very small niche volume, you can actually do that any longer?
Consider the following Venn diagram:
Circle 1 includes all the people with say enough disposable income to spend £35k
Circle 2 includes everyone who puts driving pleasure above everything else
Circle 3 includes everyone who can manage with just 2 seats a small boot
Circle 4 includes everyone who would rather spend their money on a car and not some other hobby or sport
Circle 5 includes people who don't care about having a Porsche, BMW or Audi badge (or whatever) on their car
Now overlap all those circles, and the point in the middle, that tiny, tiny intersection, is the sort of person who might buy an Elise for example.
People are i think busier, our roads are more crowded and social acceptance of "speed" has, imo, fallen significantly. Also, competition in the market for all types of car has never been harder. More and more companies offer cars that could suit a range of people, cars have become "Multi-tasking" to a large degree and less one-trick-ponies. Then, you have to consider the demands and opportunities for people to spend money outside of there car. In 2014, there are now so many demands on peoples money, be that getting on the ever more crowded housing ladder, or on holidays, hobbies or sports etc, all of which the internet brings direct to peoples sofas like never before.
In 1997, you could sell a sports car simply on how well it drove. Today i'm not sure, outside of a very small niche volume, you can actually do that any longer?
Consider the following Venn diagram:
Circle 1 includes all the people with say enough disposable income to spend £35k
Circle 2 includes everyone who puts driving pleasure above everything else
Circle 3 includes everyone who can manage with just 2 seats a small boot
Circle 4 includes everyone who would rather spend their money on a car and not some other hobby or sport
Circle 5 includes people who don't care about having a Porsche, BMW or Audi badge (or whatever) on their car
Now overlap all those circles, and the point in the middle, that tiny, tiny intersection, is the sort of person who might buy an Elise for example.
Fair points Max. However if the economies of scale could be improved you would be talking about a larger base of buyers, even if nothing else changed. The MX5 sells a ton, so people do want that sort of car. But clearly at a price. Is it feasible for Lotus to produce something which sits in between an MX5 and an Elise? In terms of focus and price?
Perhaps one alternative answer would be to produce what the majority actually want: a small fun compact light hatchback. But done using Lotus building techniques, ethos and style. Could Lotus produce a more exotic sexier rival to a Fiat 500 / Alfa Mito / MINI / the upcoming RWD Renault hatch concept? It could still be a semi-premium price. Look how much some already spend on top MINIs & 500s! £50k for the 695 isn't it?
Perhaps one alternative answer would be to produce what the majority actually want: a small fun compact light hatchback. But done using Lotus building techniques, ethos and style. Could Lotus produce a more exotic sexier rival to a Fiat 500 / Alfa Mito / MINI / the upcoming RWD Renault hatch concept? It could still be a semi-premium price. Look how much some already spend on top MINIs & 500s! £50k for the 695 isn't it?
If Lotus tried to produce a MINI competitor based around their current production techniques, it'd end up costing pretty much as much as the Evora; if they went steel monocoque, they'd have no USP or competitive advantage over the more established competition and still a much higher price point due to economies of scale.
mrdemon said:
the Evroa is a crazy price and a poor old engine with crazy co2 levels and low mpg along with high tax
we need a new Evora with 360bhp (real) a weight of 1300kg with a sub 224 co2 and a £55k price all in.
I think co2 and combined cycle mpg focus are barking up the wrong tree completely for this sort of car, anything sub 5cyl should be banned because it just sounds rubbish and mpg is mainly about weight when you drive these things properly anyway. pretty much anything i've ever driven with 4-6 cyl seemed to average around 20mpg and a lightish v8 should be mid teens so why not just lump something in that sounds fantastic?we need a new Evora with 360bhp (real) a weight of 1300kg with a sub 224 co2 and a £55k price all in.
t.Interesting point regarding current techniques. How about if Lotus were to change their expensive aluminium tub to a cheaper pressed steel one? Or are there cheaper moulded plastic / composite techniques available yet? How was Gordon Murrays uber cheap city car constructed?
Assuming the rest of the car looked the same and did 95% the same task, would it matter what material was used in the chassis? Marketing aside I mean. If you had a tick box on your Elise order form which would cost or save you thousands of pounds for the chassis alone, would that affect your decision?
Assuming the rest of the car looked the same and did 95% the same task, would it matter what material was used in the chassis? Marketing aside I mean. If you had a tick box on your Elise order form which would cost or save you thousands of pounds for the chassis alone, would that affect your decision?
k-ink said:
Interesting point regarding current techniques. How about if Lotus were to change their expensive aluminium tub to a cheaper pressed steel one? Or are there cheaper moulded plastic / composite techniques available yet? How was Gordon Murrays uber cheap city car constructed?
Assuming the rest of the car looked the same and did 95% the same task, would it matter what material was used in the chassis? Marketing aside I mean. If you had a tick box on your Elise order form which would cost or save you thousands of pounds for the chassis alone, would that affect your decision?
But what are they trying to achieve? What could they do that's better than the current competition in that market? Assuming the rest of the car looked the same and did 95% the same task, would it matter what material was used in the chassis? Marketing aside I mean. If you had a tick box on your Elise order form which would cost or save you thousands of pounds for the chassis alone, would that affect your decision?
k-ink said:
Fair points Max. However if the economies of scale could be improved you would be talking about a larger base of buyers, even if nothing else changed. The MX5 sells a ton, so people do want that sort of car. But clearly at a price. Is it feasible for Lotus to produce something which sits in between an MX5 and an Elise? In terms of focus and price?
Perhaps one alternative answer would be to produce what the majority actually want: a small fun compact light hatchback. But done using Lotus building techniques, ethos and style. Could Lotus produce a more exotic sexier rival to a Fiat 500 / Alfa Mito / MINI / the upcoming RWD Renault hatch concept? It could still be a semi-premium price. Look how much some already spend on top MINIs & 500s! £50k for the 695 isn't it?
I don't think Lotus products sit in the "Price critical" market tbh. yes, price obviously matters, but it isn't the be-all and end-all of this segment imo.Perhaps one alternative answer would be to produce what the majority actually want: a small fun compact light hatchback. But done using Lotus building techniques, ethos and style. Could Lotus produce a more exotic sexier rival to a Fiat 500 / Alfa Mito / MINI / the upcoming RWD Renault hatch concept? It could still be a semi-premium price. Look how much some already spend on top MINIs & 500s! £50k for the 695 isn't it?
3 basic segments:
"white goods" price is everything (kia,hyundia etc)
"exotica" i WANT it, and i WANT it NOW, i don't care how much it costs (Ferrari, lambo etc)
And in the middle, the inbetweeners (BMW, Porsche etc), where price does matter, but can be overrulled by other factors.
It took JLR a good 10 years to realise that if they made cars people WANT they will sell em
The mX5 sells loads simply because it suits a larger market segment, and operates at a cheap enough price to outweigh the "it isn't fast enough" or "it isn't sporty enough" factors.
In effect, you need to link price with functionality and desirability, where you can trade absolute functionality for desirability, but only in the short term (think limited edition models or "trendy" cars like the Evoque etc)
If i were Lotus, i would hate Pistonheads. It's a website full of people that say they want one thing, then they go and do another. Or, they can't afford either option but have to air their opinion anyway...
For me the Lotus Exige V6 is a great car, but is not a 'game changer' like the original Elise. With finance options so much more accessible these days, i think a lot of people go further and opt for default Porsche.
I think some of it is societal too; we are heavily influenced by US culture and it's all about looking like a baller. The Lotus name just isn't sexy enough when you can get an Audi / Merc / Porsche in white, and LEDs.
I've mentioned it before, have you not noticed how younger drivers would rather have a base model Mercedes or Audi coupe rather than a good ol' hot hatch because they are then perceived as richer people?
I agree with others, Lotus need to give up on the big dream and accept they are a niche player. They can use their talent to help other manufacturers build excellent cars and stick to a couple of their own models max!
For me the Lotus Exige V6 is a great car, but is not a 'game changer' like the original Elise. With finance options so much more accessible these days, i think a lot of people go further and opt for default Porsche.
I think some of it is societal too; we are heavily influenced by US culture and it's all about looking like a baller. The Lotus name just isn't sexy enough when you can get an Audi / Merc / Porsche in white, and LEDs.
I've mentioned it before, have you not noticed how younger drivers would rather have a base model Mercedes or Audi coupe rather than a good ol' hot hatch because they are then perceived as richer people?
I agree with others, Lotus need to give up on the big dream and accept they are a niche player. They can use their talent to help other manufacturers build excellent cars and stick to a couple of their own models max!
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