Are we close to the absolute limit for performance?
Discussion
Seems like i have been perusing this question for the last 30yrs!
I remember back in 1980 when i first rode in a 911 turbo, 0-60 in 5 secs i believe and thinking, bloody hell, nothings is going to trump this.
Fast forward and we now have the 918, P1, Veyron etc in the sub 3 second club.
When we look at the 918's sub 7 mins at the 'Ring, surely we are looking at close to the limit for the human
element in so much as being able to keep the car on the road and reaction times etc.
So, what can we hypothetically look forward to in a few years time or are we now very close to the absolute limit being usable?
In a way, it is similar to Usain Bolt and the 100 mtrs.
At some point the time just simply will not be broken as the limit will have been reached.
Thoughts?
I remember back in 1980 when i first rode in a 911 turbo, 0-60 in 5 secs i believe and thinking, bloody hell, nothings is going to trump this.
Fast forward and we now have the 918, P1, Veyron etc in the sub 3 second club.
When we look at the 918's sub 7 mins at the 'Ring, surely we are looking at close to the limit for the human
element in so much as being able to keep the car on the road and reaction times etc.
So, what can we hypothetically look forward to in a few years time or are we now very close to the absolute limit being usable?
In a way, it is similar to Usain Bolt and the 100 mtrs.
At some point the time just simply will not be broken as the limit will have been reached.
Thoughts?
keslake said:
When we look at the 918's sub 7 mins at the 'Ring, surely we are looking at close to the limit for the human
element in so much as being able to keep the car on the road and reaction times etc
<Harrumph> People just won't be able to breath if these new-fangled "railway" thinks travel faster than 60mph, donchaknow? </Harrumph>element in so much as being able to keep the car on the road and reaction times etc
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Friday 19th September 09:45
Sump said:
No ofcourse not.
When your average family wagon can do it in 2-3 seconds and also get 100 MPG, then you can say you're close to it.
Ok, forget about the 0-60 times.When your average family wagon can do it in 2-3 seconds and also get 100 MPG, then you can say you're close to it.
How about the lap times?
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
I'm sure 'ring times can keep on being slashed for many, many years to come. Technological advances giving increased traction, power, driver aids and lightweight, super-strong materials will make sure of that.
Whether we have reached the limit for enjoyable performance for a regular guy not tracking his car though, that is a different question. Especially in the high powered AMG/M models. I don't really see how any more power is helpful in these cars, in my new M6 which has 560bhp I find that I can barely use the car enjoyably, to get a nice noise I have to floor it - and by doing that I will be passing the legal limit within a few seconds. It is really too powerful to truly enjoy stretching out the engine on roads, and at 2 tonnes it is really not a car for the track if I even had the time to go to one. I actually found my notably slower (but still 490bhp) SL55 AMG more fun to drive as I could work the engine a little more and hear the big V8.
These cars however have a tonne more they can do to optimise the driving experience, make it feel a lot more special when you change the dial to 'sport' mode. I think whilst they really don't need more power the limit for enjoyable performance is a long way off for regular cars.
Whether we have reached the limit for enjoyable performance for a regular guy not tracking his car though, that is a different question. Especially in the high powered AMG/M models. I don't really see how any more power is helpful in these cars, in my new M6 which has 560bhp I find that I can barely use the car enjoyably, to get a nice noise I have to floor it - and by doing that I will be passing the legal limit within a few seconds. It is really too powerful to truly enjoy stretching out the engine on roads, and at 2 tonnes it is really not a car for the track if I even had the time to go to one. I actually found my notably slower (but still 490bhp) SL55 AMG more fun to drive as I could work the engine a little more and hear the big V8.
These cars however have a tonne more they can do to optimise the driving experience, make it feel a lot more special when you change the dial to 'sport' mode. I think whilst they really don't need more power the limit for enjoyable performance is a long way off for regular cars.
keslake said:
Ok, forget about the 0-60 times.
How about the lap times?
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
We will find a way of pushing further and faster. Even if means building double decker motorways for more space.How about the lap times?
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
But in general, we will never be close to absolute limit. We are humans and will always seeks better. EVERYTHING advances. It's just the way of life.
keslake said:
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
Road cars are absolutely nowhere near the absolute pace of racing cars - and the times set by road cars are done by racing drivers. A Veyron will do 0-100-0 in a smidge under ten seconds. An F1 car will do it under 6. The absolute Nurburgring record dates back to 1983 and is half a minute quicker than the current road car record. A current F1 car, if allowed to run it at full speed, would smash that. So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
keslake said:
Sump said:
No ofcourse not.
When your average family wagon can do it in 2-3 seconds and also get 100 MPG, then you can say you're close to it.
Ok, forget about the 0-60 times.When your average family wagon can do it in 2-3 seconds and also get 100 MPG, then you can say you're close to it.
How about the lap times?
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
otolith said:
Road cars are absolutely nowhere near the absolute pace of racing cars - and the times set by road cars are done by racing drivers. A Veyron will do 0-100-0 in a smidge under ten seconds. An F1 car will do it under 6. The absolute Nurburgring record dates back to 1983 and is half a minute quicker than the current road car record. A current F1 car, if allowed to run it at full speed, would smash that.
So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
This, really.So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
And as far as G-forces go - just trawl up some dragster figures.
What I do believe however is that many cars are already way too fast for enjoyment on public roads. They seem to be sold on the numbers - bhp, speed, acceleration, etc - and very little of that has any connection to the fun factor beyond certain limits, that are generally below what many mid-range cars are capable of.
200 bhp, 6 to 60, a forgiving and playful chassis - just tell me which is really more enjoyable, this sort of car, or a Veyron?
Not sure about cars, but with bikes it has just kept going and going...
They said the same about the Fireblade in the early 90s with "only" 120 bhp.
They said the same about the R1 in the late 90s.
They said the same about the GSX-R1000 in the early/mid 2000s
They said the same about the ZX-10 up until the S1000RR came out, and now that's just been improved, and is up to around 200 hhp.
An S1000RR will out-accelerate (or certainly keep up with) a Veyron to 180 mph and costs less than £15k.
Cars have gone the other way in terms of extra weight, focusing on CO2 emissions, crumple zones and airbags, etc. I don't see a way back from that without resorting to the extreme levels of power of the P1, etc.
They said the same about the Fireblade in the early 90s with "only" 120 bhp.
They said the same about the R1 in the late 90s.
They said the same about the GSX-R1000 in the early/mid 2000s
They said the same about the ZX-10 up until the S1000RR came out, and now that's just been improved, and is up to around 200 hhp.
An S1000RR will out-accelerate (or certainly keep up with) a Veyron to 180 mph and costs less than £15k.
Cars have gone the other way in terms of extra weight, focusing on CO2 emissions, crumple zones and airbags, etc. I don't see a way back from that without resorting to the extreme levels of power of the P1, etc.
james_gt3rs said:
996TT02 said:
200 bhp, 6 to 60, a forgiving and playful chassis - just tell me which is really more enjoyable, this sort of car, or a Veyron?
I think I'd find the Veyron so mentally exciting it wouldn't matter!GroundEffect said:
An F1 car can lap the ring in about 5:30 according to BMW engineers. And they aren't even unrestricted. There's scope yet.
Good example but i was referring to purely road legal cars and the driving of them.Can anyone envisage a car, straight out the factory lapping sub 6 mins?
keslake said:
GroundEffect said:
An F1 car can lap the ring in about 5:30 according to BMW engineers. And they aren't even unrestricted. There's scope yet.
Good example but i was referring to purely road legal cars and the driving of them.Can anyone envisage a car, straight out the factory lapping sub 6 mins?
So the question becomes, can you see anyone wanting a road car that drives like a full downforce track car? (personally, i can't it would be horrible to drive on the road)
Max_Torque said:
Realistically, what we are talking about for a sub 6min lap is an "aero assisted" type of car, ie one where the downforce it creates at speed is a SIGNIFICANT proportion of it's mass.
So the question becomes, can you see anyone wanting a road car that drives like a full downforce track car? (personally, i can't it would be horrible to drive on the road)
Given we are just seeing the start of movable aero, I think there is a lot more to come...So the question becomes, can you see anyone wanting a road car that drives like a full downforce track car? (personally, i can't it would be horrible to drive on the road)
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