Are we close to the absolute limit for performance?
Discussion
dapearson said:
Not sure about cars, but with bikes it has just kept going and going...
They said the same about the Fireblade in the early 90s with "only" 120 bhp.
They said the same about the R1 in the late 90s.
They said the same about the GSX-R1000 in the early/mid 2000s
They said the same about the ZX-10 up until the S1000RR came out, and now that's just been improved, and is up to around 200 hhp.
An S1000RR will out-accelerate (or certainly keep up with) a Veyron to 180 mph and costs less than £15k.
Cars have gone the other way in terms of extra weight, focusing on CO2 emissions, crumple zones and airbags, etc. I don't see a way back from that without resorting to the extreme levels of power of the P1, etc.
There is a video on M5board.com's youtube channel of a S1000RR easily out dragging a Veyron SS with 1200bhp.They said the same about the Fireblade in the early 90s with "only" 120 bhp.
They said the same about the R1 in the late 90s.
They said the same about the GSX-R1000 in the early/mid 2000s
They said the same about the ZX-10 up until the S1000RR came out, and now that's just been improved, and is up to around 200 hhp.
An S1000RR will out-accelerate (or certainly keep up with) a Veyron to 180 mph and costs less than £15k.
Cars have gone the other way in terms of extra weight, focusing on CO2 emissions, crumple zones and airbags, etc. I don't see a way back from that without resorting to the extreme levels of power of the P1, etc.
james_gt3rs said:
I think I'd find the Veyron so mentally exciting it wouldn't matter!
Horses for courses, but I think I'd get frustrated with the high weight and lack of throttle adjustability of the Veyron compared to something that slides as easily as a GT86. Add to that the sequential 'box and it makes the Veyron another dreary 4x4 German super-coupe, albeit a very fast one.sealtt said:
Whether we have reached the limit for enjoyable performance for a regular guy not tracking his car though, that is a different question. Especially in the high powered AMG/M models. I don't really see how any more power is helpful in these cars, in my new M6 which has 560bhp I find that I can barely use the car enjoyably, to get a nice noise I have to floor it - and by doing that I will be passing the legal limit within a few seconds. It is really too powerful to truly enjoy stretching out the engine on roads, and at 2 tonnes it is really not a car for the track if I even had the time to go to one. I actually found my notably slower (but still 490bhp) SL55 AMG more fun to drive as I could work the engine a little more and hear the big V8.
996TT02 said:
What I do believe however is that many cars are already way too fast for enjoyment on public roads. They seem to be sold on the numbers - bhp, speed, acceleration, etc - and very little of that has any connection to the fun factor beyond certain limits, that are generally below what many mid-range cars are capable of.
200 bhp, 6 to 60, a forgiving and playful chassis - just tell me which is really more enjoyable, this sort of car, or a Veyron?
^ These, with knobs on.200 bhp, 6 to 60, a forgiving and playful chassis - just tell me which is really more enjoyable, this sort of car, or a Veyron?
balls-out said:
I think Bike magazine were asking similar questions when bikes started to break the 100bhp limit. Are through 200 now.
And does that prove or disprove the theory above?sealtt said:
These cars however have a tonne more they can do to optimise the driving experience, make it feel a lot more special when you change the dial to 'sport' mode. I think whilst they really don't need more power the limit for enjoyable performance is a long way off for regular cars.
And that brings us to a whole 'nother kettle of fish, artificial simulated responses versus genuine feedback. (Yes, BMW "Active Sound", I am looking at you...) otolith said:
keslake said:
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
Road cars are absolutely nowhere near the absolute pace of racing cars - and the times set by road cars are done by racing drivers. A Veyron will do 0-100-0 in a smidge under ten seconds. An F1 car will do it under 6. The absolute Nurburgring record dates back to 1983 and is half a minute quicker than the current road car record. A current F1 car, if allowed to run it at full speed, would smash that. So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
SS7
shoestring7 said:
otolith said:
keslake said:
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
Road cars are absolutely nowhere near the absolute pace of racing cars - and the times set by road cars are done by racing drivers. A Veyron will do 0-100-0 in a smidge under ten seconds. An F1 car will do it under 6. The absolute Nurburgring record dates back to 1983 and is half a minute quicker than the current road car record. A current F1 car, if allowed to run it at full speed, would smash that. So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
There were multiple classes of car competing on that day. Pole position for the slowest class of cars was taken by a Ford Escort with 8:28. So yes, a Megane would be fast enough to beat a race prepped 1980's Ford Escort round the ring.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/race/Nurburgring-1...
otolith said:
shoestring7 said:
otolith said:
keslake said:
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
Road cars are absolutely nowhere near the absolute pace of racing cars - and the times set by road cars are done by racing drivers. A Veyron will do 0-100-0 in a smidge under ten seconds. An F1 car will do it under 6. The absolute Nurburgring record dates back to 1983 and is half a minute quicker than the current road car record. A current F1 car, if allowed to run it at full speed, would smash that. So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
There were multiple classes of car competing on that day. Pole position for the slowest class of cars was taken by a Ford Escort with 8:28. So yes, a Megane would be fast enough to beat a race prepped 1980's Ford Escort round the ring.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/race/Nurburgring-1...
SS7
*However I suspect this was a slightly longer version of the Nordschleifer.
IMO anything with over 400BHP in an average size car is really just going to go to waste unless you re on a track.
I keep wondering when the power race will stop.
However the market is there to sell to. A friend of mine has a partner who I am not allowed to take for a spin as 'he'll have a heart attack and die' and apparently becomes terrified at anything over sixty has just test driven a new M3 but has instead plumped for an RS4 Avant. Why??? Because it's the best. Idiotic and a complete waste of the car and his money but these cars will always sell to numpties like these.
I keep wondering when the power race will stop.
However the market is there to sell to. A friend of mine has a partner who I am not allowed to take for a spin as 'he'll have a heart attack and die' and apparently becomes terrified at anything over sixty has just test driven a new M3 but has instead plumped for an RS4 Avant. Why??? Because it's the best. Idiotic and a complete waste of the car and his money but these cars will always sell to numpties like these.
shoestring7 said:
otolith said:
shoestring7 said:
otolith said:
keslake said:
Surely there is a cut off point, where any driver is simply not able to push any faster, regardless of the vehicles performance?
Road cars are absolutely nowhere near the absolute pace of racing cars - and the times set by road cars are done by racing drivers. A Veyron will do 0-100-0 in a smidge under ten seconds. An F1 car will do it under 6. The absolute Nurburgring record dates back to 1983 and is half a minute quicker than the current road car record. A current F1 car, if allowed to run it at full speed, would smash that. So drivers can already cope with cars very much faster than any road car.
There were multiple classes of car competing on that day. Pole position for the slowest class of cars was taken by a Ford Escort with 8:28. So yes, a Megane would be fast enough to beat a race prepped 1980's Ford Escort round the ring.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/race/Nurburgring-1...
SS7
*However I suspect this was a slightly longer version of the Nordschleifer.
The point is that the Megane is nowhere near the pace of the racing cars.
In the future when we have mind controlled cars with anti-gravity devices and warp capability we will laugh at the ancient concept of travelling. Joking aside, as technology advances cars get faster, and there is no reason to think that progression will cease.
In fact, I would even suggest that we have reached something of a plateau in the last 100 years as we haven't moved massively forward from internal combustion. We went from walking, cycles and horses to cars and then on to 100mph in about 20 years. In the 100 years since we have pushed that to 260+mph in a road car; more in speed record cars. The technology is fundamentally the same. If/when someone invents a new propulsion which moves us to the next level, who knows how much faster we will become.
In fact, I would even suggest that we have reached something of a plateau in the last 100 years as we haven't moved massively forward from internal combustion. We went from walking, cycles and horses to cars and then on to 100mph in about 20 years. In the 100 years since we have pushed that to 260+mph in a road car; more in speed record cars. The technology is fundamentally the same. If/when someone invents a new propulsion which moves us to the next level, who knows how much faster we will become.
Captainawesome said:
IMO anything with over 400BHP in an average size car is really just going to go to waste unless you re on a track.
I keep wondering when the power race will stop.
However the market is there to sell to. A friend of mine has a partner who I am not allowed to take for a spin as 'he'll have a heart attack and die' and apparently becomes terrified at anything over sixty has just test driven a new M3 but has instead plumped for an RS4 Avant. Why??? Because it's the best. Idiotic and a complete waste of the car and his money but these cars will always sell to numpties like these.
A mate of mine bought a 3 year old Civic Type-R with less than 10k miles on the clock for peanuts from an old feller, who had "only bought it as it was the most expensive one, so must be the best". The chap had used it for a bit, then given up as his wife's Jazz was more comfortable.I keep wondering when the power race will stop.
However the market is there to sell to. A friend of mine has a partner who I am not allowed to take for a spin as 'he'll have a heart attack and die' and apparently becomes terrified at anything over sixty has just test driven a new M3 but has instead plumped for an RS4 Avant. Why??? Because it's the best. Idiotic and a complete waste of the car and his money but these cars will always sell to numpties like these.
It actually took a little bit of money to pass the first MOT, as he'd obviously never had it into VTEC or given it any beans at all in 3 years.
Captainawesome said:
IMO anything with over 400BHP in an average size car is really just going to go to waste unless you re on a track.
I keep wondering when the power race will stop.
Don't agree with the first part, I've been in a fair number of cars with over 400bhp (and a fair few over 500bhp too) and there is a time and place when you can use these engines to their potential without being on track. I keep wondering when the power race will stop.
The power war is almost over. BMW release an M5 which is less powerful than an outgoing RS6, an M3 that's less powerful than a C63 AMG; Audi release an RS6 that's actually less powerful than th predecessor....
E65Ross said:
Don't agree with the first part, I've been in a fair number of cars with over 400bhp (and a fair few over 500bhp too) and there is a time and place when you can use these engines to their potential without being on track.
The power war is almost over. BMW release an M5 which is less powerful than an outgoing RS6, an M3 that's less powerful than a C63 AMG; Audi release an RS6 that's actually less powerful than th predecessor....
Is it a case of less outright power, but more everywhere else?The power war is almost over. BMW release an M5 which is less powerful than an outgoing RS6, an M3 that's less powerful than a C63 AMG; Audi release an RS6 that's actually less powerful than th predecessor....
Theres little point in having eleventy billion bhp if you cant use it because you cant stick in the final 500 rpm
In a word, No.
Look at the tech in a LaFerrari. Now compare the stats of the Enzo to the 458 Speciale. If we see anything like what has happened in the past 10 years, the fastest 458 successor should be quicker than the LaF.
N/A engines may have started to reach close to what is realistically attainable. But the hybrid stuff in supercars is essentially very much at the beginning and once it has been developed further and further we'll see real progress.
Look at the tech in a LaFerrari. Now compare the stats of the Enzo to the 458 Speciale. If we see anything like what has happened in the past 10 years, the fastest 458 successor should be quicker than the LaF.
N/A engines may have started to reach close to what is realistically attainable. But the hybrid stuff in supercars is essentially very much at the beginning and once it has been developed further and further we'll see real progress.
dapearson said:
Not sure about cars, but with bikes it has just kept going and going...
They said the same about the Fireblade in the early 90s with "only" 120 bhp.
They said the same about the R1 in the late 90s.
They said the same about the GSX-R1000 in the early/mid 2000s
They said the same about the ZX-10 up until the S1000RR came out, and now that's just been improved, and is up to around 200 hhp.
An S1000RR will out-accelerate (or certainly keep up with) a Veyron to 180 mph and costs less than £15k.
Cars have gone the other way in terms of extra weight, focusing on CO2 emissions, crumple zones and airbags, etc. I don't see a way back from that without resorting to the extreme levels of power of the P1, etc.
This. Top end Superbikes are now extremeThey said the same about the Fireblade in the early 90s with "only" 120 bhp.
They said the same about the R1 in the late 90s.
They said the same about the GSX-R1000 in the early/mid 2000s
They said the same about the ZX-10 up until the S1000RR came out, and now that's just been improved, and is up to around 200 hhp.
An S1000RR will out-accelerate (or certainly keep up with) a Veyron to 180 mph and costs less than £15k.
Cars have gone the other way in terms of extra weight, focusing on CO2 emissions, crumple zones and airbags, etc. I don't see a way back from that without resorting to the extreme levels of power of the P1, etc.
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