Discussion
yonex said:
I don't real care if any of the diesel options make 400hp, since when do numbers equate to the drive? The Alpina (guessing) will be pretty decent but neither are 'sporty' just monstrous engines in firmly spring large cars?
Since when is a 3 series a "big car" and does that mean to you only a 1 series could be the right sizeyonex said:
Welshbeef said:
Sporty diesel?
F30 335d 313bhp 4.8 seconds to 62mph
D3 Alpina 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62mph both combined way way over 50mpg and their party piece isn't the standing start (that's a bonus) its the in gear or through the gears shove of thrust they offer.
Nice to have the options
I don't real care if any of the diesel options make 400hp, since when do numbers equate to the drive? The Alpina (guessing) will be pretty decent but neither are 'sporty' just monstrous engines in firmly spring large cars?F30 335d 313bhp 4.8 seconds to 62mph
D3 Alpina 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62mph both combined way way over 50mpg and their party piece isn't the standing start (that's a bonus) its the in gear or through the gears shove of thrust they offer.
Nice to have the options
Devil2575 said:
yonex said:
Welshbeef said:
Sporty diesel?
F30 335d 313bhp 4.8 seconds to 62mph
D3 Alpina 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62mph both combined way way over 50mpg and their party piece isn't the standing start (that's a bonus) its the in gear or through the gears shove of thrust they offer.
Nice to have the options
I don't real care if any of the diesel options make 400hp, since when do numbers equate to the drive? The Alpina (guessing) will be pretty decent but neither are 'sporty' just monstrous engines in firmly spring large cars?F30 335d 313bhp 4.8 seconds to 62mph
D3 Alpina 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62mph both combined way way over 50mpg and their party piece isn't the standing start (that's a bonus) its the in gear or through the gears shove of thrust they offer.
Nice to have the options
RobM77 said:
I think Yonex's point was that a car doesn't become sporty purly by adding a big engine and/or improving its performance, at least by his definition. I would argue that those cars are sporty, but by other measures, not their performance. I think an MX5 is more sporty than an RS4 for example, and a basic Caterham more sporty than a 911 Turbo.
I see the point. How about a Pug RCZ diesel in that case?
Also the 175 Bhp Megane from a few years ago it had the Sports chassis and set up so by definition it should be sporty.
AstraMax Diesel big tick
Anything with a Cummings diesel 9.6ltr.
RobM77 said:
I think Yonex's point was that a car doesn't become sporty purly by adding a big engine and/or improving its performance, at least by his definition. I would argue that those cars are sporty, but by other measures, not their performance. I think an MX5 is more sporty than an RS4 for example, and a basic Caterham more sporty than a 911 Turbo.
Yes, thank you!I'd argue most of the suggestions aren't really sporty, despite being fast cars. People are obsessed with power outputs. Short rev ranges, mostly autos, just don't convince me. Having owned a warm Caterham it has left me really disliking numb cars. When something like a Boxster/cayman is quoted in the same sentence as a diesel saloon I think the worlds gone a bit mad.
Welshbeef said:
RobM77 said:
I think Yonex's point was that a car doesn't become sporty purly by adding a big engine and/or improving its performance, at least by his definition. I would argue that those cars are sporty, but by other measures, not their performance. I think an MX5 is more sporty than an RS4 for example, and a basic Caterham more sporty than a 911 Turbo.
I see the point. How about a Pug RCZ diesel in that case?
Also the 175 Bhp Megane from a few years ago it had the Sports chassis and set up so by definition it should be sporty.
yonex said:
Yes, thank you!
I'd argue most of the suggestions aren't really sporty, despite being fast cars. People are obsessed with power outputs. Short rev ranges, mostly autos, just don't convince me. Having owned a warm Caterham it has left me really disliking numb cars. When something like a Boxster/cayman is quoted in the same sentence as a diesel saloon I think the worlds gone a bit mad.
But isn't this just another argument like "The Nissan 370z isn't a fast car, I drive an R8 V10 and in comparison the 370z is slow"I'd argue most of the suggestions aren't really sporty, despite being fast cars. People are obsessed with power outputs. Short rev ranges, mostly autos, just don't convince me. Having owned a warm Caterham it has left me really disliking numb cars. When something like a Boxster/cayman is quoted in the same sentence as a diesel saloon I think the worlds gone a bit mad.
Of course a diesel saloon isn't a sports car and compared to a Caterham or a Boxster it isn't that sporty. But that doesn't mean they can't be sporty.
It's relative and compared to most cars on the road a 330d Msport is actually quite sporty. Jump out of any people carrier or 4x4 and a 3 series probably feels like a Sports car In the same way that a 370z woukd feel very rapid.
The point is that just because the OP has to go for a diesel doesn't mean that all hope is lost.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Apart from a diesel Westy this is the most inspired project I have seen really. It's not snobbery to say that 'x' fast car is better than a faster diesel, it's just they way they make power, the way they feel. Don't get me wrong loads of modern petrol cars have terrible throttle response and awful fueling designed for emissions not fun. It's just a modern car thing (ones that I can afford to buy) I guess.
Apart from a diesel Westy this is the most inspired project I have seen really. It's not snobbery to say that 'x' fast car is better than a faster diesel, it's just they way they make power, the way they feel. Don't get me wrong loads of modern petrol cars have terrible throttle response and awful fueling designed for emissions not fun. It's just a modern car thing (ones that I can afford to buy) I guess.
yonex said:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Apart from a diesel Westy this is the most inspired project I have seen really. It's not snobbery to say that 'x' fast car is better than a faster diesel, it's just they way they make power, the way they feel. Don't get me wrong loads of modern petrol cars have terrible throttle response and awful fueling designed for emissions not fun. It's just a modern car thing (ones that I can afford to buy) I guess.
It's nice to see a balanced viewpoint on here. Petrol and diesel engines both have their merits. My heart will always be with petrol engines, as I feel they sound better, I prefer the characteristics, and if it's not weird to say so,I prefer the smell of petrol and the idea that it's combustable at room temperature and pressure! However, diesel has a theoretically higher efficiency, and what's most important in this day and age is that a diesel like the one in my 320d responds initially with instant torque - I mean initially, because obviously you get turbo lag on the straights, but it's that initial response you need to balance a car in a corner. In contrast, most modern petrol engines have quite a significant delay (up to 1 second, typically around half a second) in that initial response, which means you coast jnto every corner and don't have the connection between throttle pedal and the balance of the car (in an average corner, half a second is the distance from turn in, where you go from brake to throttle, up to halfway to the apex - that's up to half the corner, and arguably the most crucial part of it, gone). I really tried to get on with modern petrol engines, but save for a few notable exceptions (like my Lotus), I'm happy to give up all the positives of petrol and go to diesel just because it allows me to control the car again through corners, which is what I enjoy about driving. It's a matter of priorities, and I will always prioritise cornering control over speed and sound. Like you, it's a matter of budget, because for me an E90 M3 is perfect, it provides the sound, the balance of a V8, the responses and everything, but I do 650 miles a week and the cost is just too prohibitive. I tried a 330ci and a Z4C, but that lag just drove me nuts and I'm far happier in my 320d (I was happier still in my E36 328i, but it just got too old to be reliable enough for me). Hopefully one day the technology will allow car companies to make a responsive petrol engine again for someone with my budget, but until then I'm sticking with diesel as that initial response more than makes up for the horrible sound and the responses. Thankfully my weekend car allows me to indulge in what a petrol engine should be like!Apart from a diesel Westy this is the most inspired project I have seen really. It's not snobbery to say that 'x' fast car is better than a faster diesel, it's just they way they make power, the way they feel. Don't get me wrong loads of modern petrol cars have terrible throttle response and awful fueling designed for emissions not fun. It's just a modern car thing (ones that I can afford to buy) I guess.
RobM77 said:
It's nice to see a balanced viewpoint on here. Petrol and diesel engines both have their merits. My heart will always be with petrol engines, as I feel they sound better, I prefer the characteristics, and if it's not weird to say so,I prefer the smell of petrol and the idea that it's combustable at room temperature and pressure! However, diesel has a theoretically higher efficiency, and what's most important in this day and age is that a diesel like the one in my 320d responds initially with instant torque - I mean initially, because obviously you get turbo lag on the straights, but it's that initial response you need to balance a car in a corner. In contrast, most modern petrol engines have quite a significant delay (up to 1 second, typically around half a second) in that initial response, which means you coast jnto every corner and don't have the connection between throttle pedal and the balance of the car (in an average corner, half a second is the distance from turn in, where you go from brake to throttle, up to halfway to the apex - that's up to half the corner, and arguably the most crucial part of it, gone). I really tried to get on with modern petrol engines, but save for a few notable exceptions (like my Lotus), I'm happy to give up all the positives of petrol and go to diesel just because it allows me to control the car again through corners, which is what I enjoy about driving. It's a matter of priorities, and I will always prioritise cornering control over speed and sound. Like you, it's a matter of budget, because for me an E90 M3 is perfect, it provides the sound, the balance of a V8, the responses and everything, but I do 650 miles a week and the cost is just too prohibitive. I tried a 330ci and a Z4C, but that lag just drove me nuts and I'm far happier in my 320d (I was happier still in my E36 328i, but it just got too old to be reliable enough for me). Hopefully one day the technology will allow car companies to make a responsive petrol engine again for someone with my budget, but until then I'm sticking with diesel as that initial response more than makes up for the horrible sound and the responses. Thankfully my weekend car allows me to indulge in what a petrol engine should be like!
The infamous petrol engine lag that nobody else apart from Rob and his mates has noticed. Luckily, a small capacity turbo diesel will of course respond instantly...I can't decide whether the premise that a 320d is more responsive than any petrol car is funnier than the idea that you trail brake into every corner and need to balance the car on throttle at the apex. It sounds, with respect, like you might be driving a bit enthusiastically for the road. Then again, you probably need the trail braking to deal with the understeer that you deny exists :-)
theshrew said:
Its looking likely that im going to have to start doing a quiet a few extra miles each week to get to work ( if i get the job ) Sadly that means my low 20mpg petrol guzzler is going to have to go 
I really really dont want to go turn into a dull old fecker over night.
So can you lot recomend me something thats on the sporty / hot hatch type of direction, at cars 5-6 years old.
You should probably move to compact/mid-size and look at the 330D, A4 3.0TDI, or a Merc C to get an optimal blend of sport/utility. I can't think of any other options that do particularly well against these three, because the Germans tend to do this sort of thing best. The downside is that none of sport suspension setups will ride particularly well on UK roads, as they were designed with properly maintained surfaces in mind. I really really dont want to go turn into a dull old fecker over night.
So can you lot recomend me something thats on the sporty / hot hatch type of direction, at cars 5-6 years old.
Devil2575 said:
I've never noticed this lag you talk about.
In reply to you and ORD, we've had this before and I went so far as to post videos. Of course it exists; it's a defining feature of most modern cars. To deny it is just plain odd.Devil2575 said:
I also think it takes more than 2 seconds to go round the average corner, but maybe I'm just going slower than you.
It depends what you class as the average bend I guess. I was going on 30 metres from turn in to exit and a speed of 45mph, which is 1.5 seconds.ORD said:
The infamous petrol engine lag that nobody else apart from Rob and his mates has noticed. Luckily, a small capacity turbo diesel will of course respond instantly...
I can't decide whether the premise that a 320d is more responsive than any petrol car is funnier than the idea that you trail brake into every corner and need to balance the car on throttle at the apex. It sounds, with respect, like you might be driving a bit enthusiastically for the road. Then again, you probably need the trail braking to deal with the understeer that you deny exists :-)
Why do you say 'small capacity'? Are you inferring that a smaller capacity engine should take longer to respond? In electronic lag it'll make no difference, but mechanical inertia on a small engine will actually be less. You are making no sense at all. As above though, of course a lag exists in most modern petrol engines; you'd have to be pretty unobservant to miss it!I can't decide whether the premise that a 320d is more responsive than any petrol car is funnier than the idea that you trail brake into every corner and need to balance the car on throttle at the apex. It sounds, with respect, like you might be driving a bit enthusiastically for the road. Then again, you probably need the trail braking to deal with the understeer that you deny exists :-)
As far as balancing a car in a corner goes, this for me is the pleasure of driving. If you don't enjoy corners, what do you enjoy about driving? Straights?!?!!
RobM77 said:
Devil2575 said:
I've never noticed this lag you talk about.
In reply to you and ORD, we've had this before and I went so far as to post videos. Of course it exists; it's a defining feature of most modern cars. To deny it is just plain odd.Devil2575 said:
I also think it takes more than 2 seconds to go round the average corner, but maybe I'm just going slower than you.
It depends what you class as the average bend I guess. I was going on 30 metres from turn in to exit and a speed of 45mph, which is 1.5 seconds.Funnily enough I've never heard anyone doing a review about car complain about throttle lag and an inability to balance the car on the throttle. Tiff Needel seems to manage and get pretty excited when driving a great many car with modern fuel injected engines and balance them on the throttle.
RobM77 said:
As far as balancing a car in a corner goes, this for me is the pleasure of driving. If you don't enjoy corners, what do you enjoy about driving? Straights?!?!!
I don't balance my car on the throttle and I enjoy corners. For me it's about smooth but rapid progress without feeling like you're on the very edge. Punching the pedal on the apex and hauling yourself out of the bend onto the next straight is a pretty nice feeling, even in a relatively low powered car. I've managed to experience this is many cars including one with the same engine as in your lag video.You don't need to drive like your pants are on fire to enjoy yourself.
Just a quick search on You Tube brought up these:
http://youtu.be/RdWjh9L8oPE
http://youtu.be/IzjwMCbswdk
The guy in the Dodge Challenger actually moves his foot up and down and the engine doesn't respond at all. You could do that in first gear in my 330ci right to the floor and back and the same - nothing.
My Z4 Coupé had a pretty small lag, but it's definitely there:
http://youtu.be/3MsoBlLIrNk
And finally, my 320d:
http://youtu.be/xFdnbkUMDMU
and my Elise, which was a cable throttle:
http://youtu.be/q2GJUGAq1Sg
All of this is electronic - nothing to do with the engines at all. 'Wookie' on here used to race in the Carrera Cup and he said that the 997 cars had a bodged up cable running to the engine to get round the road car's problem and make them driveable!
http://youtu.be/RdWjh9L8oPE
http://youtu.be/IzjwMCbswdk
The guy in the Dodge Challenger actually moves his foot up and down and the engine doesn't respond at all. You could do that in first gear in my 330ci right to the floor and back and the same - nothing.
My Z4 Coupé had a pretty small lag, but it's definitely there:
http://youtu.be/3MsoBlLIrNk
And finally, my 320d:
http://youtu.be/xFdnbkUMDMU
and my Elise, which was a cable throttle:
http://youtu.be/q2GJUGAq1Sg
All of this is electronic - nothing to do with the engines at all. 'Wookie' on here used to race in the Carrera Cup and he said that the 997 cars had a bodged up cable running to the engine to get round the road car's problem and make them driveable!
Devil2575 said:
RobM77 said:
As far as balancing a car in a corner goes, this for me is the pleasure of driving. If you don't enjoy corners, what do you enjoy about driving? Straights?!?!!
I don't balance my car on the throttle and I enjoy corners. For me it's about smooth but rapid progress without feeling like you're on the very edge. Punching the pedal on the apex and hauling yourself out of the bend onto the next straight is a pretty nice feeling, even in a relatively low powered car. I've managed to experience this is many cars including one with the same engine as in your lag video.You don't need to drive like your pants are on fire to enjoy yourself.
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 22 September 09:50
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