Discussion
Welshbeef said:
In that case why do the press bang in about the fat torque curve of the M5/M3 RS6 E63 etc?
This thread is about sporty diesels the sole "sports car" fitted with a diesel is Audi TT... Or SLK 350CDI or Pug RCZ that's it so if they are not sporty then we have to look at mundane vehicles - yes the same mundane ones which are also GTI RS's VXR's
Another one the 175 Bhp Megane TDI from a few years ago with the identical chassis and suspension plus brakes of the R26.R clearly that has to be sporty non?
The motoring press is obsessed with pub bore statistics and speed. I can't see the point in the new M3 on public roads. The huge torque in fact makes it impossible to rev it out without hitting 100mph, so it is for all practical purposes little different from a diesel. This thread is about sporty diesels the sole "sports car" fitted with a diesel is Audi TT... Or SLK 350CDI or Pug RCZ that's it so if they are not sporty then we have to look at mundane vehicles - yes the same mundane ones which are also GTI RS's VXR's
Another one the 175 Bhp Megane TDI from a few years ago with the identical chassis and suspension plus brakes of the R26.R clearly that has to be sporty non?
I agree with Rob re turbo petrol cars. Aside from mpg and pollution, there isn't much difference between a lot of petrol and Diesel engines these days. If you care about air quality and, a little, about engine note, you might go for the petrol; but it is depressingly close!
jimbop1 said:
RobM77 said:
cerb4.5lee said:
RobM77 said:
What's depressing is not this thread, it's modern cars!
Fast (ish) diesels do have a place now.
And 125d
The only diesel I did have a serious hatred for was my old 520d as it was a terrible engine but I have read that the brand new 2.0d is now actually refined and quiet...but I wont hold my breath.
ORD said:
The motoring press is obsessed with pub bore statistics and speed. I can't see the point in the new M3 on public roads. The huge torque in fact makes it impossible to rev it out without hitting 100mph, so it is for all practical purposes little different from a diesel.
This has been the case with a lot of performance cars for the last 20 years though. You couldn't rev an Accord Type-R out in 3rd gear without breaking the speed limit and the E36 M3 hit 100 in about 12 seconds.
It's nothing to do with diesels or Turbos for that matter that performance cars are becomming utterly irrelevant on our roads.
Devil2575 said:
This has been the case with a lot of performance cars for the last 20 years though.
You couldn't rev an Accord Type-R out in 3rd gear without breaking the speed limit and the E36 M3 hit 100 in about 12 seconds.
It's nothing to do with diesels or Turbos for that matter that performance cars are becomming utterly irrelevant on our roads.
Exactly and to be frank if you reved out most cars 2nd gear would be just over the motorway speed limit so the remainder of 4-6 other gears cannot be used fully. You couldn't rev an Accord Type-R out in 3rd gear without breaking the speed limit and the E36 M3 hit 100 in about 12 seconds.
It's nothing to do with diesels or Turbos for that matter that performance cars are becomming utterly irrelevant on our roads.
Let's say you max out 3rd in many performance cars that's over 100mph 4th 125+mph just where are you honestly gong to do that on the main road?
If all the performance is right at the top of the rev range then 1st and 2nd will be good friends of yours otherwise I'd rather be able to use more gears.
Take my current car if I want the full 450bhp in 4th gear on the UK roads if caught I'd be in prison for 6 months and a year or two ban 5 th 185+ mph
Heck 3rd I think is well over 110mph.
So really the high performance cars big bhp your in reality using a small % of the power on the main roads.
I'd quite fancy a Clio Sport 172 or a Saxo VTS lots of noise and fun and revs but sensible speed.
This is not diesel vs petrol, it is forced induction vs NA.
Having to work a car through the revs can make it feel sporty, my daughters 1.0l Fiesta felt more sporty to drive than my 535d.
Because it needed working and you had to think about the gear you were in and the rev range coming in and out of a corner.
There are a generation of car drivers who don't even know how to drive and have fun in a NA car, they change up at 4000rpm and then say it is gutless.
Cars are changing, and not for the better imho.
More refined, quicker, more toys and better built (arguable that last one) and cheaper than ever in real terms, but they all feel a bit too easy.
Having to work a car through the revs can make it feel sporty, my daughters 1.0l Fiesta felt more sporty to drive than my 535d.
Because it needed working and you had to think about the gear you were in and the rev range coming in and out of a corner.
There are a generation of car drivers who don't even know how to drive and have fun in a NA car, they change up at 4000rpm and then say it is gutless.
Cars are changing, and not for the better imho.
More refined, quicker, more toys and better built (arguable that last one) and cheaper than ever in real terms, but they all feel a bit too easy.
Welshbeef said:
So surely this is it a sports car with a nice VW TDI job done
Yes and no. I can't see the point other than a cool little project. A 1.4 K series with some porting and a set of ITB's would absolutely mug that heavy old lump. Also as it's in a very lightweight car it would return pretty decent mpg. It's in Australia now btw
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=247471
Fastdruid said:
Welshbeef said:
gizlaroc said:
.:ian:. said:
Sporty diesel?
out of all the engines you could think of surely that's the last one you would consider for that type of car. Fastdruid said:
Welshbeef said:
gizlaroc said:
.:ian:. said:
Sporty diesel?
Put my engine it in
. yonex said:
Welshbeef said:
Revs to 5,750 rpm so it certainly does have the revs to back it up.
5750 rpm.My DC2 redlined at 8600rpm. K series in the Caterham 8100rpm. The NSX 8000rpm. But that 3.2 only made 300 odd horsepower and was obviously no match for a 3 series.
This is the new 'mapped' thread. Just so depressing.
So in order to make your point you use the example of two Honda engines well know for having a high rev limit and a modified K series.
5750 isn't a high revving engine by any stretch but it's not that much lower than a lot of petrol engines out there. Don't forget that high revving 16v engines with variable valve timing have not been around for that long, with perhaps the exception of Honda. A few years back plenty of engines/car that were considered sporty will have had a similar rev limit.
If you need to resort to a DC2 ITR to make your point then you don't have a strong argument.
Devil2575 said:
Seriously?
So in order to make your point you use the example of two Honda engines well know for having a high rev limit and a modified K series.
5750 isn't a high revving engine by any stretch but it's not that much lower than a lot of petrol engines out there. Don't forget that high revving 16v engines with variable valve timing have not been around for that long, with perhaps the exception of Honda. A few years back plenty of engines/car that were considered sporty will have had a similar rev limit.
If you need to resort to a DC2 ITR to make your point then you don't have a strong argument.
It's how they make the power, and how much they weigh and how much the car weighs which defines the packaging. To try and say that for a specific output a diesel engine has the potential to be as enjoyable as its petrol equivalent is stretching the boundaries. Name one diesel engine that is 'fun' to extend. Efficient, yes, shovels of torque, yes....fun er....So in order to make your point you use the example of two Honda engines well know for having a high rev limit and a modified K series.
5750 isn't a high revving engine by any stretch but it's not that much lower than a lot of petrol engines out there. Don't forget that high revving 16v engines with variable valve timing have not been around for that long, with perhaps the exception of Honda. A few years back plenty of engines/car that were considered sporty will have had a similar rev limit.
If you need to resort to a DC2 ITR to make your point then you don't have a strong argument.
yonex said:
To try and say that for a specific output a diesel engine has the potential to be as enjoyable as its petrol equivalent is stretching the boundaries.
Have I ever tried to say that?Just because a car has a diesel engine doesn't mean it can't be sporty. I'm not saying that it's likely to be in the same league as a Boxster or a Caterham and i'm not saying the engine will be as fun to extend as the petrol equivalent either.
My point is that just because the OP has to get a diesel doesn't mean that all is lost and his days of driving enjoyment is over. OK so there will likely be some compromise but that's what life is like sometimes. The concept of sporty isn't as black and white as you and others are saying, at least not for everyone.
Devil2575 said:
Have I ever tried to say that?
Just because a car has a diesel engine doesn't mean it can't be sporty. I'm not saying that it's likely to be in the same league as a Boxster or a Caterham and i'm not saying the engine will be as fun to extend as the petrol equivalent either.
My point is that just because the OP has to get a diesel doesn't mean that all is lost and his days of driving enjoyment is over. OK so there will likely be some compromise but that's what life is like sometimes. The concept of sporty isn't as black and white as you and others are saying, at least not for everyone.
Well maybe not for all, but for me at least half the fun is having an engine that makes me smile. I dont need 300hp to do this, just something that revs cleanly and doesn't fall off a cliff at 6000 rpm. Agreed there are comprises but there are also £1500 MX5's and MR2's for sale.Just because a car has a diesel engine doesn't mean it can't be sporty. I'm not saying that it's likely to be in the same league as a Boxster or a Caterham and i'm not saying the engine will be as fun to extend as the petrol equivalent either.
My point is that just because the OP has to get a diesel doesn't mean that all is lost and his days of driving enjoyment is over. OK so there will likely be some compromise but that's what life is like sometimes. The concept of sporty isn't as black and white as you and others are saying, at least not for everyone.
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