Sporty Diesel

[cava]

You need one of these, when it's finished:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

I've had an E46 330d Sport coupe for 7 years. It's not what I'd personally call sporty, but it's a good compromise. The handling is wallowy and vague as standard, so I fitted coilovers and poly bushes a few years back. It now has loads of grip, inspires confidence and can be hussled around at a fair old pace. It's still not what I'd call exciting to drive though. You need more engine noise for that IMO.

[Devil2575]

Wallowy and vague? I've had an E46 and the it was far from that. More than capable of being hussled down a twisty B road at speed.
As standard the E46 Sport is too stiff for UK roads IMHO. Tramlining is standard. Polybushes and coilovers would only make it worse. The SE, despite not being as firmly sprung is a better steer. Cars don't need rock hard suspension to handle well.
Sounds like your cars standard suspension was tired.

Edited by Devil2575 on Saturday 20th September 19:04

[va1o]

I've recently changed from Mk5 Golf GTI to a Mk6 Golf 2.0 TDI and I'm a bit disappointed with it really. Whilst its an excellent car its just a bit clinical feeling and not particularly engaging to drive. I don't like the diesel engine noise either. Given the rev-range and power delivery there is just no way it could be described as 'sporty'. Will hopefully go back to petrol next time!

[Kitchski]

blank said:

tjlees said:

ORD said:

tjlees said:

...the 330d easily hits the mark, out handling the Porsche Boxster for instance - wet or dry (see autocar 27 Jun 2012 & 21 Nov 2012)

This has to be up there with "junior supercar" (1 series) and "Ferrari beater" (335d) in the realm of BMW-love-ins.

As such as as I'm emotionally in love with Porsche - the facts speak differently. The Porsche Boxster S PDK is out handled by a 330D touring.

Surely "handling" is 99.9% subjective? You could try and quantify it by measuring roll/pitch/yaw rates, steering response etc but ultimately it comes down to how a car feels.

Car A could be faster than Car B around a track. Or quicker through a tight slalom of cones. But that doesn't mean it handles better.

A 330D touring may well handle better than a Boxster in your opinion, but I think you'd be very much in a minority.

Thank you for understanding the concept of handling and not confusing it with grip, speed, lap times, lateral G yada yada yada.

[anonymous-user]

tjlees said:

the 330d easily hits the mark, out handling the Porsche Boxster for instance - wet or dry (see autocar 27 Jun 2012 & 21 Nov 2012)

Uh huh, yeah, no.

[ORD]

Devil2575 said:

Wallowy and vague? I've had an E46 and the it was far from that. More than capable of being hussled down a twisty B road at speed.
As standard the E46 Sport is too stiff for UK roads IMHO. Tramlining is standard. Polybushes and coilovers would only make it worse. The SE, despite not being as firmly sprung is a better steer. Cars don't need rock hard suspension to handle well.
Sounds like your cars standard suspension was tired.

Edited by Devil2575 on Saturday 20th September 19:04

At least in the current generation, BMW standard suspension is very wallowy and inspires no confidence at all. All press cars have the M sport suspension.

[Devil2575]

Kitchski said:

Thank you for understanding the concept of handling and not confusing it with grip, speed, lap times, lateral G yada yada yada.

It's a common mistake to be honest.

Someone once informed me that my Mk1 Focus didn't handle very well compared to his Mk4 Golf GTi. When I asked him he said it was because his Golf had more grip and could corner faster. He was genuinely bemused when I talked about steering feel and feedback.

[Riknos]

Willy Nilly said:

Jimboka said:

Willy Nilly said:

My manager had an E46 318i new as a company car that was an utter pile of unreliable st, he swapped that for a new E90 320d that wasn't without issues either and the east European shovel engine bought himself an E60 525i that as of tonight hasn't moved for 2 weeks due to the regulation cooling issues which means the antifreeze that should be in the engine is currently on the floor underneath it.

My conclusions are the BMWs are expensive, unreliable, high maintenance, ste that I'd no sooner use for a long commute than I would a lame horse. They must have a gloved had come out the dash and stroke the drivers off like Ranger Rovers have.

My small, Japanese, hatch back might not be the last word in driving pleasure, but at least it will work and won't put my job at risk

Funny how the expensive/unreliable/high maintenance ste are one of the most successful car companies in existence. I reckon your manager has been a bit unlucky..

They are successful because they are good at selling and marketing aspirational cars not because they build reliable ones.

Isn't it nice when things just work?

This. Whilst I have been tempted to step into BMW ownership, and have driven several from their fleet, I can't get past the fact that sticking with Japanese cars (I've had 4) I'm more likely to have reliability for my money, that isn't worth throwing away for more sound proofing and a bmw badge...

[Devil2575]

ORD said:

Devil2575 said:

Wallowy and vague? I've had an E46 and the it was far from that. More than capable of being hussled down a twisty B road at speed.
As standard the E46 Sport is too stiff for UK roads IMHO. Tramlining is standard. Polybushes and coilovers would only make it worse. The SE, despite not being as firmly sprung is a better steer. Cars don't need rock hard suspension to handle well.
Sounds like your cars standard suspension was tired.

Edited by Devil2575 on Saturday 20th September 19:04

At least in the current generation, BMW standard suspension is very wallowy and inspires no confidence at all. All press cars have the M sport suspension.

I've not driven the current generation but in the E46 this was not the case. In fact it wasn't unheard of for people to buy a Sport but get SE suspension fitted.

I'd be genuinely surprised if it's actually wallowy and inspired no confidence though. I've driven a fair few cars in my time and the last time I drove one that inspired no confidence at all it was a Citroen C5 about 15 years ago, oh and a Mk1 Freelander. Even the VW passat, while lacking in steering feel felt reasonably stable and composed. I suspect you're perhaps exaggerating just a little bit.

[Mastodon2]

theshrew said:

Thanks for all the answers. I think this pretty much confirms my worse fears.

Every car I've had has been a hot hatch or something sports ish Celica Gt4 Subaru etc. I just don't like driving something more run of the mill spec. I really don't want to get rid of my Focus but the fuel bill would end up being crazy.

I suppose the best thing to do is to get out and drive some of these smokers and see what's what.

Other options are to keep the car

Buy a 2nd bike for the work run. That will be cost effective but bloody cold.
Buy a old banger after all it's only going to sit in what looks like a very busy car park getting the doors dinged etc. That would p1ss me right off on my pride and joy.

You should just get a second bike, an SV650 will do mid-50mpg and tbh a "sporty" diesel won't do better than that. The SV650 will cost peanuts to keep in terms of insurance, servicing, tyres and tax, it might be cold and wet at times but you won't get stuck in traffic if there's an accident on a main road, and if anything does go wrong, it won't cost much to fix / replace. A quick diesel has way too much to worry about, you've got turbos wearing out, swirl flaps dropping into the engine, high pressure fuel injectors failing etc. The bills on diesels can be staggering, and suddenly the savings you make at the pump are wiped out it's a couple hundred quid to get your car moving again.

[surveyor]

I have a 2.0T FSi Octovia VRS. I don't like the manual gearbox, but it is sporty and it's petrol.

On my long distance journeys I get very close to 40mpg without trying particularly hard. Allow for the fact that Petrol is a little cheaper it's not a no brainer.

[tjlees]

nickfrog said:

tjlees said:

330D grips better than the boxster too - 0.99g v 0.93g even given 1735kg v 1420kg.

Source ? Having driven / owned both I know exactly which one has higher lat acceleration, by far.

Lighters cars with lower COG tends to generate more lateral load, tyres being equal. Even BMW can't defy the basic laws of physics.

Autocar.

[nickfrog]

tjlees said:

nickfrog said:

tjlees said:

330D grips better than the boxster too - 0.99g v 0.93g even given 1735kg v 1420kg.

Source ? Having driven / owned both I know exactly which one has higher lat acceleration, by far.

Lighters cars with lower COG tends to generate more lateral load, tyres being equal. Even BMW can't defy the basic laws of physics.

Autocar.

Go on. I'll bite. Links please ? Or scan. Or whatever. I got 1.00g out of a 2.7 987 on road Contis so something is amiss somewhere.

[cava]

Devil2575 said:

Wallowy and vague? I've had an E46 and the it was far from that. More than capable of being hussled down a twisty B road at speed.
As standard the E46 Sport is too stiff for UK roads IMHO. Tramlining is standard. Polybushes and coilovers would only make it worse. The SE, despite not being as firmly sprung is a better steer. Cars don't need rock hard suspension to handle well.
Sounds like your cars standard suspension was tired.

Edited by Devil2575 on Saturday 20th September 19:04

Which engine E46 did you have? There is more than a 100kg weight difference even between the 330cd and 330ci, and obviously more to the smaller engines.

"Wallowy" was incorrect actually. It wasn't that, I just found it hard to tell where the limits of grip were and steering feedback was poor. The body roll was excessive yet the ride was already rock hard. Everything felt far better with coilovers and bushes. RTAB bushes especially because I didn't like the passive rear wheel steering. This was a long time ago though. But as its currently set up it's very planted and precise, I know how much grip there is and can take liberties in how I drive it. Before these mods I didn't like it, simple as that. The tramlining is no worse now either. It was rubbish before and is still rubbish now.

However, it's subjective, so this is all my own personal experience and opinions.

[Welshbeef]

Sporty diesel?

F30 335d 313bhp 4.8 seconds to 62mph
D3 Alpina 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62mph both combined way way over 50mpg and their party piece isn't the standing start (that's a bonus) its the in gear or through the gears shove of thrust they offer.



Nice to have the options

[Devil2575]

cava said:

Which engine E46 did you have? There is more than a 100kg weight difference even between the 330cd and 330ci, and obviously more to the smaller engines.

"Wallowy" was incorrect actually. It wasn't that, I just found it hard to tell where the limits of grip were and steering feedback was poor. The body roll was excessive yet the ride was already rock hard. Everything felt far better with coilovers and bushes. RTAB bushes especially because I didn't like the passive rear wheel steering. This was a long time ago though. But as its currently set up it's very planted and precise, I know how much grip there is and can take liberties in how I drive it. Before these mods I didn't like it, simple as that. The tramlining is no worse now either. It was rubbish before and is still rubbish now.

However, it's subjective, so this is all my own personal experience and opinions.

Mine was a 3 litre petrol 4 dr. To be honest I always thought the SE in the E46 was far better to drive. The Sport looked the part though which is what most people cared about.

[Bl0at3r]

I'm really pleased with my Mk7 Golf GTD - had it since June and done 3000 miles now - bucket loads of torque, suspension is on the 'sportier' side and relatively firm, loads of useful technology and driver aids.

It is a great all rounder for someone that enjoys driving.

But, if money was no object I'd probably go for a 335d.

[nickfrog]

People think hard equals sporty, even for road cars. Give me soft but well damped.

[RobM77]

ORD said:

Devil2575 said:

Wallowy and vague? I've had an E46 and the it was far from that. More than capable of being hussled down a twisty B road at speed.
As standard the E46 Sport is too stiff for UK roads IMHO. Tramlining is standard. Polybushes and coilovers would only make it worse. The SE, despite not being as firmly sprung is a better steer. Cars don't need rock hard suspension to handle well.
Sounds like your cars standard suspension was tired.

Edited by Devil2575 on Saturday 20th September 19:04

At least in the current generation, BMW standard suspension is very wallowy and inspires no confidence at all. All press cars have the M sport suspension.

In previous generations of BMW, the standard suspension gave neutral handling with comfort as well, and MSport increased stiffness and offered better quality dampers, although the ride and handling balance wasn't to everyone's taste. I recently tried the latest 1 series though with and without MSport, and things have indeed changed - the standard suspension understeered and the MSport was neutral, like the old standard suspension was. This effect was so marked that my wife said when I drove the standard car quickly down a B road it was the first time she's been worried in a car with me, as she could feel the noise pushing and just didn't feel confident in the chassis - from the driving seat it was fine (composed, but dull), but it certainly wasn't anywhere near as nice as the outgoing models' suspension. The MSport suspension was fine, and reminded me of the outgoing range's standard suspension, but with better wheel control.

No BMW should ever feel vague though, they should feel neutral, composed and responsive. I would say that if a 3 series feels vague it's almost certainly running on worn suspension - this is more noticeable on cars with a good balance than on other cars - something like a Lotus, BMW or Porsche feels instantly out of sorts if the suspension is worn. Dampers will feel noticeably different after 30k-40k miles or average driving on an average mix of roads. Most cars need a suspension refresh over about 80k miles, and this is particularly noticeable on a car with good neutral handling, like a BMW, for obvious reasons.

[anonymous-user]

Welshbeef said:

Sporty diesel?

F30 335d 313bhp 4.8 seconds to 62mph
D3 Alpina 350bhp 4.4 seconds to 62mph both combined way way over 50mpg and their party piece isn't the standing start (that's a bonus) its the in gear or through the gears shove of thrust they offer.



Nice to have the options

I don't real care if any of the diesel options make 400hp, since when do numbers equate to the drive? The Alpina (guessing) will be pretty decent but neither are 'sporty' just monstrous engines in firmly spring large cars?