Dangerous lack of torque
Discussion
ging84 said:
the irony of this thread is that the motorbike has less torque
celica 190
180.44 N·m (133.09 lb·ft) @ 6800 rpm
honda blackbird seems to vary a bit by year, but this is the highest quote i could find
124 Nm (91.5 ft-lbs) @ 7500 rpm
I dont think there is much irony here, thats still a bloody hefty amount of torque for a bike. celica 190
180.44 N·m (133.09 lb·ft) @ 6800 rpm
honda blackbird seems to vary a bit by year, but this is the highest quote i could find
124 Nm (91.5 ft-lbs) @ 7500 rpm
Joey Ramone said:
If there's one thing that is fundamentally important to a biker, particularly those who prefer to ride litre-plus bikes like mine (Blackbird), it's the knowledge that a quick yank on the laughing cables in any gear will result in some pretty profound acceleration. Even in 6th. Add to that some epic amounts of engine braking and overtaking becomes second nature: sit in 5th, quick turn of the wrist, catapult forwards and then let the engine slow you down as you slot back into position. Rinse and repeat. Like riding a massive scooter.
To be honest the Blackbird is lacking in grunt as well. I nail mine in top and think 'why didn't I buy a ZX14 or Hyabusa' (thanks for the s
t gearing Honda).The trick, like your Toyota, is proper use of the gears. Then the Blackbird is zippy enough to keep up with all those torquey diesels.
Joey Ramone said:
I can pretty much put money on the fact that someone has killed themselves in a Celica somewhere at some point.
...because of it's 'dangerous lack of torque'?. Are you broken? How do you think people cope in cars with less torque and no high end power? You know, the kind of cars that 90% of people on the road today drive....?If you can't plan well enough to perform a safe overtake in a 190bhp car, I think you might need more driving lessons.
TurboHatchback said:
As others have already said, use the gearbox. To accelerate from 60 to overtake you want to be in 3rd, of course 5th is going to be disappointing. If you want instant punch from cruising at 60mph in top without changing gear you need many more litres of displacement, an automatic gearbox or a big diesel engine. A small capacity NA petrol screamer is clearly not going to deliver this.
There is no level of performance which is dangerous, only dangerous drivers.
Let's just clarify something. When I mentioned that I performed an overtake in 5th gear, that was on a dual carriageway with one car in front. No oncoming traffic and therefore no issue with safety. I was just surprised at how sluggish the Toyota felt in comparison to other cars in similar circumstances, that's all. There is no level of performance which is dangerous, only dangerous drivers.
On the trip down to Dorset the less than stellar overtake that resulted in sharp words from the missus was undertaken in 4th as opposed to 3rd.
The thing with the Celica 190, is that if you want to go fast, you have to give it 10/10ths changing up a gear as close to 8250rpm as you can.
Lazy overtakes don't suit the engines character. Saying that, it has more than enough "oomph" on a dual carriage way to comfortably sail past in 6th at 70+
Lazy overtakes don't suit the engines character. Saying that, it has more than enough "oomph" on a dual carriage way to comfortably sail past in 6th at 70+
Joey Ramone said:
Of course it's my fault you dullard. Re-read the bit in my original post where I admit my own ineptitude.
Although I can pretty much put money on the fact that someone has killed themselves in a Celica somewhere at some point.
Don't take your frustrations out on me because you've made a complete clown of yourself. Although I can pretty much put money on the fact that someone has killed themselves in a Celica somewhere at some point.
I have some sympathy with the OP, back in time I used to love thrashing peaky twin cam engines around the local roads but nowadays they are just annoying. You just end up revving the nuts off the engine in a low gear whilst waiting for an opportunity to pass that seldom occurs.
Peaky 16v engines are just flat and frustrating in traffic and make you drive like a teenage lad if you try to make progress, I am sure this is why diesels are so popular.
We have a pair of BMWs - 328i and 525d, the diesel is easier to drive, more flexible, faster in most situations and uses half the fuel, jumping out of the diesel into the petrol makes it seem weak and gutless.
In the right conditions the 328i engine is superb though, free revving, sounds fantastic, smooth and willing, unfortunately road conditions mean most of the time you are lugging around amongst traffic in the lower rev range, it's like using a racehorse to pull a milk float.
Peaky 16v engines are just flat and frustrating in traffic and make you drive like a teenage lad if you try to make progress, I am sure this is why diesels are so popular.
We have a pair of BMWs - 328i and 525d, the diesel is easier to drive, more flexible, faster in most situations and uses half the fuel, jumping out of the diesel into the petrol makes it seem weak and gutless.
In the right conditions the 328i engine is superb though, free revving, sounds fantastic, smooth and willing, unfortunately road conditions mean most of the time you are lugging around amongst traffic in the lower rev range, it's like using a racehorse to pull a milk float.
kev b said:
I have some sympathy with the OP, back in time I used to love thrashing peaky twin cam engines around the local roads but nowadays they are just annoying. You just end up revving the nuts off the engine in a low gear whilst waiting for an opportunity to pass that seldom occurs.
Peaky 16v engines are just flat and frustrating in traffic and make you drive like a teenage lad if you try to make progress, I am sure this is why diesels are so popular.
We have a pair of BMWs - 328i and 525d, the diesel is easier to drive, more flexible, faster in most situations and uses half the fuel, jumping out of the diesel into the petrol makes it seem weak and gutless.
In the right conditions the 328i engine is superb though, free revving, sounds fantastic, smooth and willing, unfortunately road conditions mean most of the time you are lugging around amongst traffic in the lower rev range, it's like using a racehorse to pull a milk float.
I drive a diesel for the same reason - the powerband (2-4000 rpm) is more readily accessible in everyday driving. Peaky 16v engines are just flat and frustrating in traffic and make you drive like a teenage lad if you try to make progress, I am sure this is why diesels are so popular.
We have a pair of BMWs - 328i and 525d, the diesel is easier to drive, more flexible, faster in most situations and uses half the fuel, jumping out of the diesel into the petrol makes it seem weak and gutless.
In the right conditions the 328i engine is superb though, free revving, sounds fantastic, smooth and willing, unfortunately road conditions mean most of the time you are lugging around amongst traffic in the lower rev range, it's like using a racehorse to pull a milk float.
Can't see much point having an engine like the Toyota 2ZZ where the power band starts at 6k rpm. It means that for 90% of the time you're driving around with the engine well outside the power band.
I have a Celica 190 and have no issues with the lack of torque. As has already been covered you should have done your research before buying. I used to have a V5 engined car and it's characteristics were literally the complete opposite, almost felt like a diesel with a slightly wider power band.
I agree with the sentiment of most of the posts so far - the OP simply has to spend a bit of time getting used to the characteristics of the car. That model, along with Honda Type-Rs of the same time, are well known for their engine characteristics. On that note, I don't see the Celica 190 as having a "dangerous lack of torque", indeed compared to the majority of the beige traffic on the road I suspect it doesn't do too badly.
I reccomend the OP bear with the car and simply spend some time on his own getting used to it, even take it on a track day with some instruction. If you otherwise like the car it would be silly to change it for a fault that isn't really a fault at all - indeed the engine is an integral component of what gives that car its character.
I reccomend the OP bear with the car and simply spend some time on his own getting used to it, even take it on a track day with some instruction. If you otherwise like the car it would be silly to change it for a fault that isn't really a fault at all - indeed the engine is an integral component of what gives that car its character.
littleredrooster said:
38 posts and nobody has suggested the blindingly obvious.
335d remapped will solve all of your problems, OP. Auto + monster torque ensures Blackbird-like overtaking, almost. And I'm almost being serious...
This thread is golden: mention the low down power and massive torque of a diesel on PH and you're ridiculed, because the torque is meaningless and of no value (to paraphrase the sheep). 335d remapped will solve all of your problems, OP. Auto + monster torque ensures Blackbird-like overtaking, almost. And I'm almost being serious...
Come on here and mention that your 190bhp petrol car is totally gutless unless you're screaming the tits off it and "it's part of the charm".
I don't have this issue with my horrid, unreliable diesel that doesn't do anything like the claimed mpg ( <-- all those are false) - I've never found it wanting in overtaking grunt. Put my foot down and it f
ks off. And I come from 20 years of continuous litrebike ownership. None of this is any criticism of the OP by the way (who I must say was very Troy Queef-like in his prose at times 
) - all I can say is that it likes revving.Anyway - I'm not going to fall into the trap of the petrol Vs diesel debate. Just my 2p. Ahm oot!
Edited by Dog Star on Tuesday 23 September 08:04
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