Why bother with a 500bhp V10 if....

[Hasbeen]

Fox- said:

dcb said:

I save many many hours driving anything from 90 to 155 mph in Germany
and it only ever costs me about 2-3 mpg. BMW 325 Auto.

I find that very hard to believe - I found that my 530i manual was into the teens mpg wise at 130-140ish mph on the Autobahn, whereas it had been doing high 30's at 70mph. The fuel economy penalty for such high speeds was very significant indeed. At 155mph the mpg needle looked like it was on about 10!

I also found that despite crossing the entire country the number of people flashing past me at 140+ was very small - most people just didn't seem to drive at VMAX.

I have found something rather surprising about fuel consumption.

I have raced many cars at Bathurst. Apart from a Hillman Imp, every one of the vastly different cars gave 7 miles/gallon.

This included a Morgan +4, & +8, a Turner,[115E ford 1500], XK120 Jag, with C type motor, Lotus 20 Formula junior, Brabham Formula junior, Brabham Cosworth 1500, Brabham Repco 2.5L formula 1, Holden Monaro, Ford GT HO.

These were very different cars, with peak revs ranging from 5500 to 9700 RPM, & speeds from 124 to 180 MPH.

Every time I found this same fuel consumption, when working out how much to fuel a car for a race, I became even more surprised.

I currently drive a range of cars, from a 74Kw Oz Ford Capri, through a TR7 & TR8, [4.6L 330 BHP], to a Honda S2000. It doesn't seem to matter if I have spent the day in a funeral procession, or hooning in the border ranges, they all give between 9 & 10 liters/100 Km, although the TR8 did use 10.1 L on a 2900 Km 3 day run a while back.

I wonder if I have some sort of metering unit embedded in my right foot?

[E65Ross]

Fox- said:

dcb said:

I save many many hours driving anything from 90 to 155 mph in Germany
and it only ever costs me about 2-3 mpg. BMW 325 Auto.

I find that very hard to believe - I found that my 530i manual was into the teens mpg wise at 130-140ish mph on the Autobahn, whereas it had been doing high 30's at 70mph. The fuel economy penalty for such high speeds was very significant indeed. At 155mph the mpg needle looked like it was on about 10!

I also found that despite crossing the entire country the number of people flashing past me at 140+ was very small - most people just didn't seem to drive at VMAX.

Agreed, I was once very tired and and did an 80 mile trip at 60-65 and my 745i (from a cold start, some town stuff etc) managed 34-35mpg. The next day I did the return leg at, erm, a bit quicker, and managed around 24-25mpg

[HertsBiker]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

[TobyLerone]

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

Say what?!

If you're serious, do you ride your bike on the redline in 6th? For someone riding a ZZR1400, that's fast...

If everyone thrashed their car to it's max, not only would there be many more dead vehicles that just expire on the road, everyone would be travelling much, much faster than would be safe. Even an 800-odd cc classic mini is able to break speed limits... Is everyone who operates a motor vehicle a poser by your logic?

[E65Ross]

TobyLerone said:

Say what?!

If you're serious, do you ride your bike on the redline in 6th? For someone riding a ZZR1400, that's fast...

If everyone thrashed their car to it's max, not only would there be many more dead vehicles that just expire on the road, everyone would be travelling much, much faster than would be safe. Even an 800-odd cc classic mini is able to break speed limits... Is everyone who operates a motor vehicle a poser by your logic?

He did say something in brackets which may be worth reading

I don't agree that you need to hoon it everywhere though; I regularly drive quite sedately but certainly not every single journey, otherwise....where's the fun in having a V8 petrol?

[anonymous-user]

I hate to quote Clarkson (I can't actually remember the quote anyway), but he has a great analogy for this involving his waterproof watch that he knows he will never use to its depth limit.

[E65Ross]

RenOHH said:

I hate to quote Clarkson (I can't actually remember the quote anyway), but he has a great analogy for this involving his waterproof watch that he knows he will never use to its depth limit.

Good to know that it'll be alright if you drop it in the kitchen sink...

[Sir Humphrey]

TobyLerone said:

Say what?!

If you're serious, do you ride your bike on the redline in 6th? For someone riding a ZZR1400, that's fast...

If everyone thrashed their car to it's max, not only would there be many more dead vehicles that just expire on the road, everyone would be travelling much, much faster than would be safe. Even an 800-odd cc classic mini is able to break speed limits... Is everyone who operates a motor vehicle a poser by your logic?

I would rather people buy the cars and don't "make the most of it" so that its in a usable condition for someone who will appreciate it when they buy it second hand, if he thrashes it everywhere and he will be the only person to be able to use it and he will be £80k down.
If a petrolhead wants to pay £80k for the car new they will buy one new, he is looking after it while the price drops for a less wealthy petrolhead to get it.

Although even this is missing the point that its his car and he can do what he likes with it.

[xxChrisxx]

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

Well you can't fault the logic, of course based on legalities, that we should all only ever buy base model engines and drive them flat out.

You have missed the joie de vivre of owning very powerful motor. It's the knowledge that, should you chose to, you could give pretty much anything else on the road a damn good thrashing. As such, you never have to actually drive anywhere quickly.

It's slightly paradoxical that very fast cars can be most fulfilling when driven sedately, and slow cars most fun when driven quickly.

[dcb]

Fox- said:

I find that very hard to believe - I found that my 530i manual was into the teens mpg wise at 130-140ish mph on the Autobahn, whereas it had been doing high 30's at 70mph. The fuel economy penalty for such high speeds was very significant indeed. At 155mph the mpg needle looked like it was on about 10!

Try to understand the difference between average and maximum.

My maximum might be 155 mph, or 140 mph, but I don't do those speeds
for long, due to many real world considerations like other traffic.

I've *no* *idea* what kind of mpg I get at those sorts of speeds as I am somewhat
busy looking out of the windscreen, rather than looking at interior dials.

My average is far far different from maxima of 140 mph - in fact it is rare for me
to crack 100 mph average on the usual Calais - Aachen - Munich - Alps run.

My comment about 2-3 mpg is based my typical runs across Germany.
Sure sometimes I am blatting along at 155 mph, but there are other
times when I am doing 50 mph in roadworks. Sometimes low mpg,
sometimes high mpg: they even out.

Momentary or short term fuel consumption numbers don't really matter, it's the
averages that count on a long run.

[jamieduff1981]

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

I disagree. Fast versions of cooking cars invariably have much nicer chassis setups, better feeling brakes and better feeling steering too. Usually they're much better equipped as standard too and/or have desirable features not available on the mundane diesel versions.

The thing most don't realise about fast cars is that whilst they usually do have glorious engines, they almost always have so much more to them than just the engine. Even the glorious engines can make far more pleasant noises driven slowly than a diesel ever will.

A good car is enjoyable always - but people who only have experience of crap cars just think they're the same as the diesels but faster and therefore don't see the point. Taken to its non-car enthusiast conclusion, one dismisses all nice cars as superfluous with the classic "What's the point? The speed limit is XXmph anyway"

[xxChrisxx]

dcb said:

Try to understand the difference between average and maximum.

My maximum might be 155 mph, or 140 mph, but I don't do those speeds
for long, due to many real world considerations like other traffic.

I've *no* *idea* what kind of mpg I get at those sorts of speeds as I am somewhat
busy looking out of the windscreen, rather than looking at interior dials.

My average is far far different from maxima of 140 mph - in fact it is rare for me
to crack 100 mph average on the usual Calais - Aachen - Munich - Alps run.

My comment about 2-3 mpg is based my typical runs across Germany.
Sure sometimes I am blatting along at 155 mph, but there are other
times when I am doing 50 mph in roadworks. Sometimes low mpg,
sometimes high mpg: they even out.

Momentary or short term fuel consumption numbers don't really matter, it's the
averages that count on a long run.

Then what you have said before is asinine and misleadingly communicated. Because 'travelling at 150mph' vs 'travelling at 70mph' doesn't cost you 2-3mpg. A quick occasional blat, costs you 2-3mpg. All I can say is, if it's only costing you 2-3mpg, you aren't sustaining that high speed for any meaningful length of time.

Any time you are away from your average speed, you have lost economy due to needlessly accelerating and more importantly then losing that speed.

Taking the hypothetical example

You have 100 miles to travel.
A: You drive those 100miles at 100mph from start to finish.
B: You drive 30mins at 50mph and 30mins at 150mph.

A will get you there in the same time as b but use less fuel, as cruising power requirements cube with speed (edit: that's not to say that economy drops off by this amount), and accelerating is the least fuel efficient thing you can do with a car. It's why town driving gives such stty mpg, because you are constantly doing the operation that uses most fuel.

So unless you are making a concerted effort to drive as fast as you possibly can at all times on the journey to attain the highest average speed, a quick blast up to 150mph is having little effect on your average speed, but a relatively greater detrimental effect on economy.

The key to economical cruising, is trying to estimate the highest average speed you can sustain. Or if traffic is free and you are on a deadline, balancing economy and time.

Edit: You can drive however you like. It's not a criticism of excursions to Vmax. Just don't try to make it seem like it's just as efficient to do so, because it isn't.

Edited by xxChrisxx on Tuesday 30th September 00:07

Edited by xxChrisxx on Tuesday 30th September 00:49

[T0MMY]

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

I can't quite believe we're having this discussion based on how someone was cruising down a motorway. I cruise at about 60mph in my kitcar on the motorway...from that would you immediately assume it never gets driven as it was designed to?

FFS, it's the motorway...it's not fun. I highly doubt anyone on here routinely cruises at more than 100mph for sustained periods of time on one so none of us would even be using the full potential of a bloody Nissan Micra.

[coppice]

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

People have choices- they can buy very fast cars and drive them slowly or very slow cars and drive them fast. They can near bankrupt themselves to buy a pricey car or pay peanuts for a shed. If people want to pose that's fine too- because image is a major factor in car choice or we'd all buy Dacias . And some of those mundane diesels out pace their petrol equivalents BTW . Conclusion- buy what you want and drive it how you like . And it can be fun to drive contrary to the stereotypical expectation just to p**s people off , as it seems to do ...

[Schermerhorn]

xxChrisxx said:

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

Well you can't fault the logic, of course based on legalities, that we should all only ever buy base model engines and drive them flat out.

You have missed the joie de vivre of owning very powerful motor. It's the knowledge that, should you chose to, you could give pretty much anything else on the road a damn good thrashing. As such, you never have to actually drive anywhere quickly.

It's slightly paradoxical that very fast cars can be most fulfilling when driven sedately, and slow cars most fun when driven quickly.

This. Just having that 'knowledge' is enough

[Lost soul]

Fox- said:

dcb said:

I save many many hours driving anything from 90 to 155 mph in Germany
and it only ever costs me about 2-3 mpg. BMW 325 Auto.

I find that very hard to believe - I found that my 530i manual was into the teens mpg wise at 130-140ish mph on the Autobahn, whereas it had been doing high 30's at 70mph. The fuel economy penalty for such high speeds was very significant indeed. At 155mph the mpg needle looked like it was on about 10!

Quite right , anything over around 90 kills mpg

[Vladikar]

I often get the 'why are you driving in the slow lane' look in my car, much to the annoyance of most white van drivers.

My car my business where I drive it fast.

[xRIEx]

Schermerhorn said:

xxChrisxx said:

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

Well you can't fault the logic, of course based on legalities, that we should all only ever buy base model engines and drive them flat out.

You have missed the joie de vivre of owning very powerful motor. It's the knowledge that, should you chose to, you could give pretty much anything else on the road a damn good thrashing. As such, you never have to actually drive anywhere quickly.

It's slightly paradoxical that very fast cars can be most fulfilling when driven sedately, and slow cars most fun when driven quickly.

This. Just having that 'knowledge' is enough

I don't really care about giving other cars a 'damn good thrashing' - if that's a primary concern when choosing a car then I think HertsBiker was correct, it's been selected for its posing effect.

[Jonty355]

I know someone who sits at 70mph on the motorway in his 268mph 1200bhp quad turbo W16!

[Schermerhorn]

xRIEx said:

Schermerhorn said:

xxChrisxx said:

HertsBiker said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but if you can't afford to drive your 'fast' car as it was designed to do (legalities excepted) then you bought too powerful a car in error and are a poser. Better drive a mundane diesel and be able to thrash it than have to tip toe about with your super car.....

Well you can't fault the logic, of course based on legalities, that we should all only ever buy base model engines and drive them flat out.

You have missed the joie de vivre of owning very powerful motor. It's the knowledge that, should you chose to, you could give pretty much anything else on the road a damn good thrashing. As such, you never have to actually drive anywhere quickly.

It's slightly paradoxical that very fast cars can be most fulfilling when driven sedately, and slow cars most fun when driven quickly.

This. Just having that 'knowledge' is enough

I don't really care about giving other cars a 'damn good thrashing' - if that's a primary concern when choosing a car then I think HertsBiker was correct, it's been selected for its posing effect.

Everyone is different. People can 'pose' in different ways, it depends on how you interpret what 'posing' means. To me, it's going out of your way to make sure everyone knows what car you have.

To others the mere presence of someone in a nice car can infuriate them.