RE: Lotus boss Jean-Marc Gales: PH Meets

[TA14]

kambites said:

Frimley111R said:

There's all this talk of Chapman's philosophy but which road cars ever demonstrated this apart from the 7 and Elise?

The Elan was pretty damned light compared to its competition.

I always liked the 1958 Elite

[robertpaulson]

Oddball RS said:

And as for cylinder count I don't follow you? cylinder count is on the drop at all manufacturers as it rev limit, its 2014!, putting large capacity heavy lumps in a car is NOT the Lotus ethos. (Do you forget the new Alfa is a 4 pot?) Caterham V12 anyone? this is the existing Lotus market place - the new one died with Bahahahaha.

Well to me something like the new bmw i8 (with a 3 pot 1.4) sounds fantastic but lotus are never going to have access to those sort of engines, so why not at least put something in with a bit of character?

Chuck something like that sans hybrid heft in the new twingo and life becomes very very hard for the elise

[otolith]

Slightly amusing that the bmw's fake sound is lauded when Lotus invented the technology!

[j90gta]

Apparently they can get the weight of the chassis down to 45 kgs without too much trouble. The biggest problem with Lotus is cash flow. Whilst they have orders for over 600 cars they do not have the cash to buy in the components to make them. There is a huge difference between sales and delivered cars. it's a chicken and egg situation. The parent company are one of the largest automotive manufacturers in Malaysia and are supposed to be fully committed to Lotus. Wednesday is D-day with regards the redundancies. Having to pay off 325 staff will not help matters. I wish everyone the best of luck.

[vernz]

There have been a lot of anti Lotus and anti Porsche comments, but at the end of the day for most people it comes down to price and spec against the competition....

Cayman 2.7
Weight 1310kg
275ps
165mph
5.5 secs 0-60
£39k

Evora 3.5
Weight 1380kg
280ps
163mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£53k

Personally I think both cars look great and subjectively appear to offer the same amount of kit as standard. I suspect most buyers would be happier with the standard wheels on the Evora and would upgrade on the Cayman, but that still leaves you 13k adrift.

Even if you look beyond all the technology in the latest Cayman and opt for the 'plucky bit' it would take a very brave man to go for the Evora (based on the previous comments they appear to be in single figures!!)

Someone else summed it up.....the Evora was priced as a cheaper alternative to a 911, but in reality now finds itself priced as a more expensive alternative to a Cayman and barely competes on spec with that model.

I'm sure the Lotus end of year accounts would look a lot better with just 10% of those sales from people that have ordered a Cayman in the last 12 months!!

[blueg33]

vernz said:

There have been a lot of anti Lotus and anti Porsche comments, but at the end of the day for most people it comes down to price and spec against the competition....

Cayman 2.7
Weight 1310kg
275ps
165mph
5.5 secs 0-60
£39k

Evora 3.5
Weight 1380kg
280ps
163mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£53k

Personally I think both cars look great and subjectively appear to offer the same amount of kit as standard. I suspect most buyers would be happier with the standard wheels on the Evora and would upgrade on the Cayman, but that still leaves you 13k adrift.

Even if you look beyond all the technology in the latest Cayman and opt for the 'plucky bit' it would take a very brave man to go for the Evora (based on the previous comments they appear to be in single figures!!)

Someone else summed it up.....the Evora was priced as a cheaper alternative to a 911, but in reality now finds itself priced as a more expensive alternative to a Cayman and barely competes on spec with that model.

I'm sure the Lotus end of year accounts would look a lot better with just 10% of those sales from people that have ordered a Cayman in the last 12 months!!

I think Cayman S vs Evora n/a sports racer is a closer comparison

Cayman 3.4 S
Weight 1340kg
325ps
175mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£57,259 specced to match the Evora Sport Racer

Evora 3.5
Weight 1380kg
280ps
163mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£57,900

0-60 is comparable, top speed is largely irelevant on the road. Plus the school run with more than 1 child is possible in the Evora. You can even carry 4 Evora wheels with tyres in the Evora which proved to be useful last week

Edited by blueg33 on Monday 29th September 12:20

[otolith]

vernz said:

Cayman 2.7
Weight 1310kg
275ps
165mph
5.5 secs 0-60
£39k

Evora 3.5
Weight 1380kg
280ps
163mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£53k

On the other hand, if I were considering an Evora it might be because I wanted to put my kids in the rear seats that the Cayman doesn't have - and if I were considering a Cayman and looking at the specs and prices I would also look at;

Elise S
Weight 924kg
220ps
145mph
4.2 secs 0-60
39k

[vernz]

I take the point, but I suspect the typical (hopeful) profile of Lotus for a potential buyer of an Evora doesn't involve a school run or using it as a tyre carrier!

I agree the figures make more sense when comparing the sports racer against the Cayman S, but clearly an incredibly small number of people would agree enough to part with their cash, which after all is the only true measure of how keen someone really is.

I haven't driven either car, but I can't help think that the Cayman S would have the edge in terms of performance over the base Evora and that the Evora S would be nearer in performance to a PDK/Chrono pack optioned Cayman S, which leads me to conclude along with many potential buyers where the Evora really sits in the market place and as such is not priced competitively.

Second hand however is a different matter, although I fail to see how that alone would really help Lotus.

[braddo]

vernz said:

I take the point, but I suspect the typical (hopeful) profile of Lotus for a potential buyer of an Evora doesn't involve a school run or using it as a tyre carrier!

Why not? Someone with a family whose offspring might occasionally fit in the back (kids or grandkids) and/or someone who might fancy taking a set of track tyres to a track day?

[kambites]

The car is so compromised by the requirement to squeeze in rear seats that if their target demographic doesn't intend to use them, they really screwed up. The requirement to carry kids in the back is certainly the only reason I'd consider an Evora.

Edited by kambites on Monday 29th September 15:58

[Dynamic Turtle]

I honestly don't think there's any cross-pollination between Cayman and Evora buyers? Anyone with the slightest interest in an Evora would surely never consider anything as ubiquitous, effective, reliably dull and mass-market as a Cayman, shurely? OK so the new GTS sounds amazing and may well change that, but by contrast, I think Lotus/Evoras attract nihilistic, iconoclastic enthusiasts.

[vernz]

OK, I must be wrong and that's why they have sold loads of units this year.......hold on, but they haven't though!

I've read a handful of people making a valid case for an Evora, which is great, but at the same time Caymans are flying out of the factory and a trickle of Evora's are going abroad.

Pesonally I think it's a great looking car and I'm sure it has more of a wow factor than a Cayman ever will, but the sums just don't add up....53k for 280ps with a near 1400kg kerb weight.

I understand why people make a case for the Evora. I'd love to see Lotus flying the flag and doing well, but the sales don't lie and as it stands now, I can't see how a bit of tinkering with the range is going to equal a massive turn around.

[otolith]

More people want the kind of thing Porsche does. Even more people want the kind of thing VW or Ford do. If you want something a little off the mainstream, you aren't going to get it as cheaply as the thing that everyone else wants.

[vernz]

I agree, but how does that translate into sales?

Surely you have to look at the reasons why people are attracted to the competition and try to win them over with a product that closer matches the alternative car, with a better spec, closer pricing, better warranty, etc.

It makes me smile when people infer that Lotus are exclusive, exciting and 'reassuringly expensive' but if they are not selling, then something has to change to give Lotus an edge that actually results in increased sales!

Maybe Lotus need to attract a few more of those 'boring' Porsche buyers!!

[Europa1]

vernz said:

I agree, but how does that translate into sales?

Surely you have to look at the reasons why people are attracted to the competition and try to win them over with a product that closer matches the alternative car, with a better spec, closer pricing, better warranty, etc.

It makes me smile when people infer that Lotus are exclusive, exciting and 'reassuringly expensive' but if they are not selling, then something has to change to give Lotus an edge that actually results in increased sales!

Maybe Lotus need to attract a few more of those 'boring' Porsche buyers!!

It make me smile when I infer that people use the word infer when they meant imply. Unless i have misunderstood the implication they were trying to make, of course...

[otolith]

No, I think trying to make Porsches would be a mistake. Porsche already make them and are very good at it. And, from the point of view of the consumer, people who want a Porsche can already have one - how does being able to buy a second rate version from someone else make the world a better place? Lotus need to play to their strengths and make compelling cars in their own right. They will never be as mass-market as Porsche because they will never be as good at being ordinary to live with, but nor do they need to be something for everyman - Lotus doesn't need to sell anywhere near Porsche volumes.

[Fire99]

blueg33 said:

I think Cayman S vs Evora n/a sports racer is a closer comparison

Cayman 3.4 S
Weight 1340kg
325ps
175mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£57,259 specced to match the Evora Sport Racer

Evora 3.5
Weight 1380kg
280ps
163mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£57,900

I'm no Porsche fan and I'm the first to be rooting for Lotus but with those specs / price, I'd expect the majority to choose the Porsche, maybe me included..

[blueg33]

vernz said:

I take the point, but I suspect the typical (hopeful) profile of Lotus for a potential buyer of an Evora doesn't involve a school run or using it as a tyre carrier!

I agree the figures make more sense when comparing the sports racer against the Cayman S, but clearly an incredibly small number of people would agree enough to part with their cash, which after all is the only true measure of how keen someone really is.

I haven't driven either car, but I can't help think that the Cayman S would have the edge in terms of performance over the base Evora and that the Evora S would be nearer in performance to a PDK/Chrono pack optioned Cayman S, which leads me to conclude along with many potential buyers where the Evora really sits in the market place and as such is not priced competitively.

Second hand however is a different matter, although I fail to see how that alone would really help Lotus.

My Evora is a daily driver, so tyhe ability to do the school run is handy. The wheels and tyres are a set of new winters that I bought on ebay. The point is that you get added practicality which is useful occasionally.

Its odd, my conclusion is that the n/a is actually priced very well, the S is a bit high but only when compared with a PDK equipped Cayman. If you want the joy of manual change and heel and toe, then an n/a Evora is as quick as a Cayman S and an Evora S quite a bit quicker again.

(as a matter of interest, a Cayman S pulled along site me on a sliproad onto the M5 on saturday (it was a car from the new Porsche dealer at Tewkesbury). From a rolling start, he was no quicker down the sliproad, we both got to circa 70 mph before joining the motorway

[braddo]

kambites said:

The car is so compromised by the requirement to squeeze in rear seats that if their target demographic doesn't intend to use them, they really screwed up. The requirement to carry kids in the back is certainly the only reason I'd consider an Evora.

Edited by kambites on Monday 29th September 15:58

Do you think they should have just shortened the wheelbase a bit and ditched the rear seats? I think the Evora would still have the same engine and gearbox arrangement. I don't think there is any chance that for the given selling price, the Evora was going to have a longitudinal engine and transaxle.

[braddo]

vernz said:

I agree, but how does that translate into sales?

Nowhere to buy them, reliability fears, fears that the company will go under - I think these have a real impact on new car buyers and why a new Evora feels like a risky proposition for a lot of people, even if the reality is not as bad as the perception.