RE: Lotus boss Jean-Marc Gales: PH Meets

[shalmaneser]

Impasse said:

The Bahar Esprit was close to prototype stage. The engine was already whizzing around the roads of Norfolk in the back of at least one mule. What a waste of money to bin it all. Lotus began making their own engines in the mid 70s, how that can not be seen as part of their much reported core values is a mystery.

Well it certainly worked for TVR.

Do you work in automotive manufacturing?

[blueg33]

Fire99 said:

blueg33 said:

I think Cayman S vs Evora n/a sports racer is a closer comparison

Cayman 3.4 S
Weight 1340kg
325ps
175mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£57,259 specced to match the Evora Sport Racer

Evora 3.5
Weight 1380kg
280ps
163mph
5.0 secs 0-60
£57,900

I'm no Porsche fan and I'm the first to be rooting for Lotus but with those specs / price, I'd expect the majority to choose the Porsche, maybe me included..

Why? The only difference is power and top end. 0-60 is the same, trhere is a small weight difference.

I still maintain that the crux of the problem is that Porsche buyers dont really have much awareness of the Evora and that is down to marketing and sales outlet visability.

I quoted a 911 owing work colleague of mine earlier in this or the other thread. His words when je saw my car for the first time last week were.

"I didnt know these even existed, who would have a Porsche when you could have one of these?"

He likes cars but isnt an out and out petrolhead. His 911 is a 997 C2 which he bought new out of a bonus. I think that a lot of Porsche buyers fall into a similar category, especially the buyers of new ones.

Personally, I think the evora is better than a regular 997 (back seats are less usable though) but not bettr than the 991 (horrible electric steering excluded). But the price differential is pretty big.

What I forgot to add, is that I was 99% certain I would buy a Porsche, probably a Cayman but a C2 was also on the cards. I have driven quite a few Porsches over the years and really like them. But I was swayed by the Evora in a matter of minutes on driving feel, ride and handling alone. Those things outweigh the build quality which is not bad but not up to Porsche, they outweigh the 9000 mile service interval and the lack of dealers.

I am certain that more people would feel like this if they a. new the car existed, b. actually tried one

Edited by blueg33 on Monday 29th September 17:52

[BIRMA]

A good sensible discussion for Pistonheads really, I do hope Lotus survives as I have had one since 1973 in one form or another my last being a very late V8 Esprit. Interestingly both myself and another member have gone the Cayman and Boxster route having tried both an Evora and Exige and we are both members of the Lotus Anoraks and have been since the nineties.

[ChristAlmighty]

Tuna said:

:snip: ...a new Esprit wouldn't save the company unless it outclassed every other supercar currently on sale... :snip:

Not true, it just needs to look amazing primarily. As it does. A great engine is nice, handling etc. as long as "there or there abouts" will convince 90% of people to hop off the cookie-cutter Porsche-turbo merry go round, and on to something different, exciting... and British.

I'd buy a new Esprit tomorrow for these reasons alone. And I know quite a few more that feel the same...

Edited by ChristAlmighty on Monday 29th September 19:41

[kambites]

If they produce an Esprit, surely it wont really be aiming at a Porsche dominated market? It'll be more of a (slightly) cut price F458/Mclaren MP4/Lamborghini Huracan competitor. I suppose the GT2 sort of competes in that market.

I certainly can't see it starting at much less than £150k.

Edited by kambites on Monday 29th September 19:35

[otolith]

Nah, it's a Lotus, it should cost tuppence ha'penny

[ChristAlmighty]

I'd hope the base price would be in line with an Aston Vantage v12 - 140k. Obviously the options list could make the price somewhat more lumpy...

[Vee12V]

kambites said:

If they produce an Esprit, surely it wont really be aiming at a Porsche dominated market? It'll be more of a (slightly) cut price F458/Mclaren MP4/Lamborghini Huracan competitor. I suppose the GT2 sort of competes in that market.

I certainly can't see it starting at much less than £150k.

Edited by kambites on Monday 29th September 19:35

Problem is that people who buy in that segment don't want 'cut price'. On the contrary.
Biggest problem is Lotus not having any exciting powertrains. Nobody want a super/sportscar that doesn't have an exciting engine and gearbox. Also, they need double clutch units (not that I care, but you need them if you want to sell more units).

Edited by Vee12V on Monday 29th September 19:55

[otolith]

Yet people are talking about a new Esprit, which for most of its life had a little turbocharged four pot.

[Robert Elise]

Niche is fine.
The new David Brown Speedback is based on an XJR chassis and drivetrain, no performance mods at all. Yet it will cost over 400k more than an XJR! first orders taken. You can sell 100 of anything today so long as there's some pedigree and the price is high enough (yes, high enough).
Lotus clearly specialise in things other than leather & wood, but it does have have an immense heritage and could do something in a similar vein. Zonda sells what it makes...

[kambites]

Vee12V said:

Biggest problem is Lotus not having any exciting powertrains.

Is, for example, the MP4's powertrain really "exciting"? Most of the reviews I've read would imply not.

To be honest, I think the badge on the engine matters more than any actual charactistic of how it drives - people paying that much for a car (or even a lot less) simply don't want to have components which come from "lesser" brands. Given that they can't afford to develop their own from scratch, I suppose that leaves Lotus with the question of how much they have to fettle an existing engine for the public to view it as "bespoke".

[bishbash]

Robert Elise said:

Niche is fine.
The new David Brown Speedback is based on an XJR chassis and drivetrain, no performance mods at all. Yet it will cost over 400k more than an XJR! first orders taken. You can sell 100 of anything today so long as there's some pedigree and the price is high enough (yes, high enough).
Lotus clearly specialise in things other than leather & wood, but it does have have an immense heritage and could do something in a similar vein. Zonda sells what it makes...

So what about slapping an Esprit styled body over a Lexus LFA chassis/drivetrain, would that sell (for LFA money)?

[kambites]

bishbash said:

So what about slapping an Esprit styled body over a Lexus LFA chassis/drivetrain, would that sell (for LFA money)?

I very much doubt Toyota would sell them the engine, let alone the monocoque. I guess they might be able to buy the RC-F engine. That's 450bhp out of the box which would be enough if they could keep the car light enough; otherwise they could also follow their recent trend of bolting superchargers to everything. Where they get a gearbox from is a harder question; I guess they could buy in a Getrag box of some sort like everyone else who wants a dual clutch box but can't justify making their own.

Edited by kambites on Monday 29th September 20:42

[Robert Elise]

kambites said:

bishbash said:

So what about slapping an Esprit styled body over a Lexus LFA chassis/drivetrain, would that sell (for LFA money)?

I very much doubt Toyota would sell them the engine, let alone the monocoque. I guess they might be able to buy the RC-F engine. That's 450bhp out of the box which would be enough if they could keep the car light enough; otherwise they could also follow their recent trend of bolting superchargers to everything. Where they get a gearbox from is a harder question; I guess they could buy in a Getrag box of some sort like everyone else who wants a dual clutch box but can't justify making their own.

Edited by kambites on Monday 29th September 20:42

IF Toyota owned Lotus that would be at feasible, and if Lotus modified things enough then yes, it would work i think. It would need a fair amount of work and not just be a rebadge to justify the price of.... 500k??? But there is a niche out there who'd pay that easily (and would NOT pay if it was only 200k). From that halo car you produce lesser models for non-oil sheiks. McLaren have built a car company from scratch in 20 years on this basis.

As the owners are DRB, not Toyota, they'd have to pay for some platform development, but it's feasible.

What i'm suggesting is that the halo car is not a 100k Esprit but a much more expensive feat of engineering that would showcase Lotus' skills. The Esprit would be the second car. Lotus has more pedigree, especially worldwide, than Zonda, Noble et al. It would have to execute properly though...

Edited by Robert Elise on Monday 29th September 20:56

[juansolo]

How is the M600 selling...? As that appears to be what most people are suggesting the Esprit should be.

Also I may be out of touch here, but do Lotus buyers really want a double clutch gearbox in their cars? Do they really have to have one? If so, I guess I'm not a Lotus buyer any more as it's the very last thing I'd want in a Lotus and I wouldn't want them wasting money developing one at the expense of the manual being a piece of st.

IMO, what I've said before, plus a price tag of £60-70k. Ginetta can sell a G60 for this money and that's a carbon monocoque car with a bought in V6 engine very much on a par with Lotus' output (but without the brand cache). Indeed, it could be the Esprit I'm suggesting if you watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pawmdwhBQDQ

Start looking at £80k and you're firmly into Porsche territory, over that and you're starting to dip into Ferrari/McLaren's market. Lotus are not, and have never been that good in terms of quality of product. Nor with their resources can they afford to be.

Edited by juansolo on Monday 29th September 21:23

[bishbash]

juansolo said:

How is the M600 selling...? As that appears to be what most people are suggesting the Esprit should be.

according to http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... 'we're selling as many as we can make' but I'm not sure they make that many.

[juansolo]

In which case *thumbs up*. Not for me, but if that's what the market wants, then it makes sense to do that.

[Europa1]

The comments about the M600 are interesting in the context of the discussions about the engine for the new Esprit. Although the M600 is pitched at a very different price point (£300k if I recall correctly), it has a breathed on Volvo engine in the back, which is not normally a marque to stir the loins of the ardent petrolhead.

[kambites]

Europa1 said:

The comments about the M600 are interesting in the context of the discussions about the engine for the new Esprit. Although the M600 is pitched at a very different price point (£300k if I recall correctly), it has a breathed on Volvo engine in the back, which is not normally a marque to stir the loins of the ardent petrolhead.

For some reason you can get away with an off-the-shelf engine in a £300k car much more easily than a £150k car.

[blueg33]

bishbash said:

juansolo said:

How is the M600 selling...? As that appears to be what most people are suggesting the Esprit should be.

according to http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI... 'we're selling as many as we can make' but I'm not sure they make that many.

In terms of UK new registration Noble has 1 in 2012 and 1 in 2013. That's not exactly a roaring success in the UK

I think we would be safe to suggest that Lotus doesn't try and emulate Noble sales volumes.